Bought home w/ defective drywall. Help me automate from scratch!

[etc6849]

I agree. I would start by choosing on Elk or HAI. Hardwire all rooms for motion detectors (I like the ceiling mounted type), door sensors, window sensors and ethernet (at least three runs of cat6 ethernet to each room, it not four); the extra ethernet cables are for an HDMI balun placed at each TV. I would also run audio cables to each room and possibly control/power cables for blinds to each window.

I use Elk since it seems more open to DIY'ers, but that may/may not be true as I don't have experience with HAI.

For lighting, locks and even blinds, z-wave is an option for you. Since you're a programmer, Premise would be a great fit and it's free. Premise even has a powerful SDK (.net and C++) that's also free.

 

[Relleum]

I think it is time to start talking components. Let's start with the controller, which would be the HC-1000. Let's say that I wanted to run my primary source of music from my iphone, mainly using sources like grooveshark, or eventually spotify. Does that mean I need the iPod dock, or is it worth it to just subscribe to rhapsody (since it seems well integrated)? I understand the HC-1000 has 500gb of room, but I was planning on creating a media server in upwards of 6-12 TB, so how would I go about integrating a solution like that to work with the controller?

What kind of dimmers should I get for lighting control? All I see are wireless options on the website, so is there no advantage/ability to do a wired solution since my walls are open right now?

Should I purchase their thermostat? What are the advantages to purchasing a different brand thermostat?

Is it recommended to purchase control4 speakers for the entertainment centers and home audio? I would think that I have pretty good freedom to choose the speakers of my choice. If so, any recommendations?

I saw demos of control4's ipad application, and it seems pretty good. Since the end goal is controlling everything from an iPad, are there any other companies that have surpassed control4 when it comes to iPad usability?

When integrating automated window blinds (say lutron, for instance), will I have to buy another controller just for these components?

If I could sway my security subcontractor to install an alarm system brand of my choice, which one(s) should I be shooting for?

More questions tomorrow. Thanks for your help and suggestions so far!

 

[Relleum]

I met with a professional home automation installer today at the house, and he specializes in Control 4. I was pretty impressed with some of the ideas he had for the home, and it seems like C4 will go a long way in satisfying my automation desires.

There were a few things he mentioned that kind of worry me. Firstly, while the ipad/iphone apps seem to be pretty user friendly, he did warn me that there is a 5ish second delay when logging in locally, and a 10 second delay when logging in remotely. For that reason he said that it would make more sense to have at least one (portable) touchscreen in the home, since there is no delay, and it can be customized more than the ipad application. Is there no way around this delay? I feel like in just a few years, it will be unheard of that someone would need to use a proprietary hardware touchscreen the size of a brick instead of an iPad.

The second thing was that he wasn't too enthusiastic about automating window blinds, mainly because of how expensive the products are on the market today. Is there really no cost effective method for this kind of automation? Lutron is definitely out of the budget, so is there anything I'm missing in this area that has a similar price/performance/quality combination as Control 4?

I've also yet to find a pro that could explain to me the pros and cons of an Elan g! system, as compared to C4. If the iPad experience is significantly better on g!, then I need to know!

 

[electron]

Somfy is a popular manufacturer of window blinds automation products. As for the delay, I am guessing he is talking about the startup delay? Command response should be immediate.

 

[apostolakisl]

I met with a professional home automation installer today at the house, and he specializes in Control 4. I was pretty impressed with some of the ideas he had for the home, and it seems like C4 will go a long way in satisfying my automation desires.

There were a few things he mentioned that kind of worry me. Firstly, while the ipad/iphone apps seem to be pretty user friendly, he did warn me that there is a 5ish second delay when logging in locally, and a 10 second delay when logging in remotely. For that reason he said that it would make more sense to have at least one (portable) touchscreen in the home, since there is no delay, and it can be customized more than the ipad application. Is there no way around this delay? I feel like in just a few years, it will be unheard of that someone would need to use a proprietary hardware touchscreen the size of a brick instead of an iPad.

The second thing was that he wasn't too enthusiastic about automating window blinds, mainly because of how expensive the products are on the market today. Is there really no cost effective method for this kind of automation? Lutron is definitely out of the budget, so is there anything I'm missing in this area that has a similar price/performance/quality combination as Control 4?

I've also yet to find a pro that could explain to me the pros and cons of an Elan g! system, as compared to C4. If the iPad experience is significantly better on g!, then I need to know!

That delay is a property of using IP and the speed of the c4's ability to process IP connection data.

I hope he is being pessimistic on that 5 sec/10 sec delay just so you don't complain after the fact. When you use the dedicated in house unit, I am going to guess it has an rf connection directly to the c4 panel avoiding delay from IP stuff. Also, it is probably pre-authenticated so no logging-in process needs to be done. Now the only delay is the c4's internal processing of that rf signal. If it has a fast, dedicated processor for that purpose, it should respond seemingly instant.

When you use your iphone, your phone is moving data through your LAN to the c4. Delays exist when you do it this way from the routers, switches, and from the c4's server. The c4 would have to have a very slow web server to delay 5 seconds on your lan. The latency of your lan should only be a few milliseconds. I can't explain why it would be 10 seconds if the lan is 5 seconds since internet latency doesn't add but a few more milliseconds.

My Elk and insteon stuff responds in much less than one second using both lan and internet over both my iphone and now my droid. Perhaps when he gives those times, he is included getting the app up and running and authenticated. That part does take a few seconds, but once I am connected, response times are usually "instant" from a human perspective.

 

[lshanepowers]

I install Elan G professionally and it is a great system. I've used the system for about 6 years(previously Homelogic before Elan purchased the company) Their new controllers and handheld remotes are awesome. Their iPad and iPhone applications are very good. You can't do 100% from them like you can from their touch screens at the moment(for instance right now irrigation control is not available throught the iPad of iPhone) They are planning on a rewrite in the coming 6 or 9 months that should bring more parity.

Elan G is a dealer installed/purchased system but many dealers will give access to allow the homeowner(with some programming sense) to tweak the system. Full system backups are very simple so if a homeowner screws anything up, it can be restored in about a minute.

Elan makes a lot of audio hardware but doesn't make a lot of the other integration hardware. They however integrate witha lot of other hardware. It integrates well with HAI or Elk or more basic security systems also. They integrate with various thermostats and lighting systems. Elan actually sells UPB lighting now that works well G.

Let me know if you have any other questions but I'd definitely give it a hard look in your home automation research.

-Shane

 

[Relleum]

As for the delay, I am guessing he is talking about the startup delay? Command response should be immediate.

That delay is a property of using IP and the speed of the c4's ability to process IP connection data.

My Elk and insteon stuff responds in much less than one second using both lan and internet over both my iphone and now my droid. Perhaps when he gives those times, he is included getting the app up and running and authenticated. That part does take a few seconds, but once I am connected, response times are usually "instant" from a human perspective.

I met with another professional Control 4 dealer, and he actually showed me the response times on the iPad; it's negligible (at most 2-3 seconds from app loaded to dashboard). It's even faster when the app is already loaded.

 

[Relleum]

Their new controllers and handheld remotes are awesome. Their iPad and iPhone applications are very good. You can't do 100% from them like you can from their touch screens at the moment(for instance right now irrigation control is not available throught the iPad of iPhone) They are planning on a rewrite in the coming 6 or 9 months that should bring more parity.

Have you had experience with Control 4 on the iPad? If so, do you think it is better or worse of a UI than Elan g?

 

[Relleum]

Somfy is a popular manufacturer of window blinds automation products. As for the delay, I am guessing he is talking about the startup delay? Command response should be immediate.

The installer I met with today also recommended Somfy. How would I go about getting an idea of how much each window will cost? Is there a popular website with pricing?

 

[AnthonyZ]

The installer I met with today also recommended Somfy. How would I go about getting an idea of how much each window will cost? Is there a popular website with pricing?

No. That's because it will depend on so many factors. Size, shade type, material, control options, etc. You're gonna need to get a quote for accurate answers.

 

[etc6849]

The Elan g! system looks interesting. They must have been losing too much market share to Control4! How do the new Elan systems compare to the cost of Control4? It's been my experience that the Elan stuff was way over priced for what you got (but I looked at it three years ago).

I saw an iPad running the newer Control4 interface and was impressed. Not laggy at all. Any app is going to take a second to initially load. I wouldn't go with the first dealer as they are just trying to sell you an unneeded/unwanted touchscreen. There are iPad wall mounts you can get and have a much better looking setup for less money. If you need more "reliable" control, you can always use the Control4 remote and navigate using a tv.

When I played with the Control4 app, I purposely tried to get it to lag and couldn't. The system was integrated with a DSC alarm panel where Control4 used the motion sensors to trigger events and the iPad showed updated status of the motion sensor triggers instantly. I would look at putting in an alarm panel compatible with Control4 for occupancy detection/security. If the integrator doesn't do security panels (Elk, HAI or DSC) I wouldn't go with them.

 

[lshanepowers]

Have you had experience with Control 4 on the iPad? If so, do you think it is better or worse of a UI than Elan g?

Not recently, traditionally Control 4 hasn't been very customizable with the UI(even though this may have changed recently, don't know). For instance, all their normal icons are on their home page no matter what you have installed. I never liked this. Beyond this, I can't comment on their iPad app versus the Elan. Maybe someone else can chime in on the iPad app for Control 4.

The Elan G system is much more competitive with Control 4 price wise than the older traditional Elan systems. Basically, the G system has fully integrated the Homelogic IP control system with new Elan hardware.

-Shane

 

[Neurorad]

You won't be able to tweak many settings yourself with C4 or Elan. Maybe that won't be an issue for you, as most home controllers are 'set and forget'. They'll typically return a couple months after the install for fine tuning.

You may get lucky with one of the integrators, and allow DIY changes as part of the contract. But you'll need to provide him with confidence in your abilities. You may have to call additional installation companies to find one willing to let you make significant changes.

Many integration companies sub out shade work, ask to speak with the shade guy.

You would typically use the alarm that the integrator requests, since their company has to install and program.

 

[cornutt]

Does this mean that having my walls open right now is not really that big of an advantage for home automation?

Not at all; having your walls open is a huge advantage. Wireless stuff is getting better, but I'd still rather have all of my security wired if I had the chance. And, with wired you don't have to be constantly replacing batteries everywhere. Plus, you have a chance to do some things that would be harder to do with wireless.

Make sure you get some alarm wire to every door and window location. You don't necessarily have to home-run every single window; daisy chaining the windows in a given room will be OK in most situations. If you have a window that you know you're going to leave open a lot, you might want to wire it individually. Do wire each door individually. And since you mentioned window treatments, make sure you get a separate run up to a top corner of each window opening where you might want to put in a motorized treatment.

Run at least one run of Cat4e to each room. If you have a place where you know you will have an entertainment center, run two or three. Also run one to each thermostat location. Run either coax or Cat5 to each exterior location where you might want to put a camera; also pull one or two extra coax runs to a south location on the house in case you decide to go for satellite TV or radio in the future.

Think about which doors you will routinely use for entry and exit; you'll need a keypad of some sort near each one so you can arm/disarm the security. Pull some alarm wire to the location in your garage where the garage door buttons will be, so you can connect those to your system and have it control the doors. Think about where to put exterior temperature or daylight sensors and run some Cat5 there. Are you going to have a lawn irrigation system? Pull some Cat5 to where its controls will be. Pull a Cat5 run to a location in each room where you might want to put in an audio system control pad.

One thing you may not need/want to hardwire is lighting control. There are some good hardwired lighting control systems available, but they tend to be expensive. And, in some areas, connecting the low-voltage wiring for lighting control to the line-voltage control devices is problematic from a code standpoint. Most people who use UPB have had good results with it (including me). UPB transmits signals over the power lines and doesn't require separate wiring.

Finally, a basic but often-overlooked point: Wherever you are going to put your controller, be sure to pull a dedicated branch circuit to that location. And a phone line.

 

[apostolakisl]

Not at all; having your walls open is a huge advantage. . . . . . . Finally, a basic but often-overlooked point: Wherever you are going to put your controller, be sure to pull a dedicated branch circuit to that location. And a phone line.

Ditto to all of that.

I would also add to it that you run conduit. Conduit doesn't have bandwidth problems like cat6 will when cat7 comes out, or whatever other wire you are running. Also, conduit means you don't say "oh @$!#, I forgot I needed that wire". You don't need to put conduit everywhere, but I highly suggest you at least connect sections of your house together like atic to basement, one attic to another, etc as well as run conduit to high use areas like where you plan on putting your entertainment center.