Bought home w/ defective drywall. Help me automate from scratch!

[Relleum]

Since you have the 'big bucks' I would probably go with HAI. One thing nice about HAI is you can do it yourself, or hire someone to do it for you as it's popular with home automation installers.

If you were going more on a budget and concentrating on security I would recommend the Elk.

HAI offers a lot of integration including touchscreens (that are killer), security, home automation, music server, intercom, security video, etc...

Read some of my CES and ISC West reviews on HAI to see some of their displayed products.

I would bag Control 4 if you ever are even thinking about touching the system yourself.

Okay, I received a quote for control 4, coming in at about 42K for just about everything except the TVs for each room. Quite frankly, I'm kind of turned off by the cost of everything, especially with limited control over the system. Elan g! seems like a polished solution (a bit more than C4), but I anticipate would also come in at the same pricepoint, or higher.

I've been looking more and more into HAI as you suggested. Since I am an experienced programmer, I get the feeling that I could be very happy with a quality DIY solution. Is there any place I can get a demo of an iPad app that is compatible with HAI. Where would I begin to piece together all the different components necessary for my situation?

 

[sic0048]

There are a lot of DIY options. I suspect most if not all of us on this forum that have automation are doing it DIY.

As far as the automation controller, you can either use a controller like HAI or Elk (both have alarm panels plus automation options built into them), or use a computer with some sort of software installed. I personally use the computer option (although I actually have an ELK and use it some as well). I use CQC for my system, but there are lots of options. You might look at Premise (who's community uses this forum) or others on this list.

 

[Relleum]

After some quotes and more research, I am moving away from Dealer-only solutions like C4 and Elan g!. I just don't see the benefits over DIY solutions. I'd rather be able to hire professional help for the installation parts that I am less experienced with (i.e. electrical and wiring), and handle the rest on my own. Therefore, it comes down to Elk or HAI, and HAI OmniPro II suites me best. I'd pair it with the Haiku iPad app, since I'm pretty impressed with the user interface.

Another advantage with HAI is the Windows Media Center integration. I am building an HTPC with Ceton InfiniTV tuner, and it's great that I'll be able to control automation with HAI's WMC module. HVAC looks pretty easy; I just install a few Omnistat 2 thermostats and my AC is automated. The rest seems a bit more complicated:

Lighting
So HAI offers an entire system for UPB based lighting control, and it seems pretty robust. The only thing that turns me off a bit are the unrefined aesthetics of the scene switches. They certainly aren't ugly, but they don't scream "classy" either. Unless someone comes up with any other cons with HAI lighting, it seems like a no-brainer to me. I see bundles and kits on ecommerce sites like automatedoutlet, so this can potentially make buying all the necessary equipment pretty painless.

Security
Not really sure where to start here. Obviously all first floor windows need terminal contacts, some pet-safe motion sensors, and maybe even outdoor cameras as well. The actual installation of this (and all electrical wiring, low voltage, etc) will be done by a professional, so maybe it's time to find a HAI specialist. I'd still like to have the specific component list ready when I consult with the installer.

A/V
As mentioned before, I have a HTPC that will be the source of all recorded tv, videos, movies, etc. The family room will have 7.1 surround, so this is where I need advice. Originally I was thinking that the HTPC inputs into a Denon or Onkyo receiver, and that would feed the tv and speakers. From a media selection standpoint, WMC will allow me to get to the media. But what about controlling the receiver so that the media sounds and looks right? Can HAI do this, and if so how integrated will the experience be? Would I still have to buy HAI HTX?

And finally, whole home audio. In the past few years, my wife and I slowly started to neglect our iTunes libraries in favor of on demand services like grooveshark, and most recently, spotify. The most ideal integration would be if we could control Spotify through the Haiku, but I doubt that is possible. Either way, I need to figure out the most convenient integration of on demand audio with HAI.

For whole home audio, I'm still trying to figure out how all of the components work together. From my understanding, I have two choices with HAI: HIFI 2 or Russound. The requirement here is that I want the ability to independently control the different zones in my home with different audio sources. And at the same time, I would want the ability to play one source across all zones (including speakers used for the family room's 7.1 audio setup). And it all has to be controlled from the iPad, ideally with a unified app like Haiku.

So there's what I know so far. I started this thread with no idea on what I wanted or which type of automation solution best suited my needs. But slowly, I've narrowed it down to a specific brand, and I think with a little more help, I'll know precisely which components will power all the different facets of my soon-to-be-automated home.

Thanks for all the help everyone!

 

[tmbrown97]

FYI, you can use HAI's UPB protocol without using their switches - if you like the look of other manufacturer's UPB switches or scene switches, feel free to use them - there's a published way to set them up where they're fully compatible with HAI's HLC.

For music, there's HiFi, Russound, and also Nuvo - another simple and compatible solution. I have no opinion on either - been looking at all three.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

HAI has their own music gateway as reported HERE. B)

 

[lshanepowers]

If you don't like the look of HAI lighting keypads, look at PCS. They have higher quality dimmers and keypads in my opinion and they literally wrote the protocol for UPB so of course their support of the protocol will be great.

 

[Relleum]

If you don't like the look of HAI lighting keypads, look at PCS. They have higher quality dimmers and keypads in my opinion and they literally wrote the protocol for UPB so of course their support of the protocol will be great.

PCS looks strangely similar to Elan g! lighting keypads. I actually met with a Lutron RadioRA 2 dealer today, and I must say that I like their lighting keypads the best so far. Do people ever combine Lutron Radio RA with HAI controllers? The keypads seem to be similarly priced ($350 - $400 for a multi scene).

 

[lshanepowers]

They are rebranded PCS switches, hence the exact same look.

 

[Relleum]

Hey guys. I'm entering into the rebuilding stage of the remediation process. Here's the quote I received from the electrician for all the modifications necessary to get the home prepped for automation. Please look it over, and let me know what you guys think is too high/low/just right:

1. Shade motor prewire $1,725 (includes 1 dedicated circuit per room, wiring and breakers)
2. Upgrade all cat 5 wire to cat 6 wire $525
3. Additional cat 6 wire at every existing location $1,190
4. Upgrade low voltage structured panel to hinged door panel 48" $295 (needed for extra cat 6 drops)
5. Upgrade low voltage structured panel with standard cover $245 (needed for extra cat 6 drops)
6. Relocate Q panel to under the stairs $295
7. Additional Cat6 drops for family room, club room and master only $255
8. Additional 2 RG6 under stairs $95
9. Additional quad 110 outlet under stairs $150
10. Additional pair of speakers prewire with volume box patio soffit by pool $250 16/2 wire
11. Additional pair of speaker prewire with volume box front of house (soffit by garage) $250 16/2 wire
12. Additional pair of speakers (no volume box) $180 any location 16/2 wire

-------------
Total : $6705


OPTIONAL EQUIPMENT
13. HDMI Drops not to exceed 75' for $500 each drop
14. Lutron RadioRA Devices, Installation and programming $10,500


As for the shade motor prewire, it includes all windows in kitchen, family room, dining, and master, all courtyard windows, and all sliding glass doors. It does not include upstairs bedrooms, and I forget if it includes loft windows. I'll also be getting a breakdown of the Lutron portion of the quote tomorrow.

 

[tmbrown97]

So there are some things we don't know here... like how many drops of Cat5/6 you're talking about. I've done so many large commercial jobs; but only a handful of residential, so I won't claim to know the market - but basically Cat5 to Cat6 should be about <1.5 x the cost of Cat5 for the cable and the jacks. So for example, if it's $1000 to do Cat5, expect it to be about ~$1400 for Cat6 (material cost - labor is almost the same). I also remember that depending on the locale, it was costing me between $50 and $75 per run for Cat6 on the last couple jobs. The residential markets do tend to cost a little more because there's more liability and the runs are more difficult.

If you want to go RadioRA, DIY that... don't pay the contractor his markup and learning curve - you'll probably want to learn and change the system anyways.

The HDMI runs seem pricey - a 75' run of HDMI seems to be about $70; rapidrun cables are easier and cost a little more - so figure he's charging $100 for materials and $400 for labor?

The additional quad outlet under the stairs - is he running another circuit? because the outlets will cost him $5... unless he's doing something to provide higher ampacity.

For your structured panels - well, I have the 50" Channel Vision can w/smoked plexi-glass cover - I think it's the most expensive option available - street price is about $240.

This is all so variable - and I hate dealing with contractors... it's my guess that most contractors bill what they don't understand at a higher rate in case they screw up and have to spend more time on it. Cat5 to Cat6 is an increase in material costs; but the labor is mostly the same (take a tiny bit longer to terminate because of the tighter winds) - adding outlets isn't that hard; adding an additional wire to an existing pull - BFD - labor is the same; material cost per run is probably $30 on average. It's not uncommon for contractors to price things they don't like or understand high because they hope you'll either pass on them, or if they have to deal with callbacks, they'll make their money back.

The shade motors I have no idea about - dedicated breaker per room? I thought most shades were low voltage, but this is an area I know nothing about - so hopefully others will chime in.

 

[Relleum]

So there are some things we don't know here... like how many drops of Cat5/6 you're talking about. I've done so many large commercial jobs; but only a handful of residential, so I won't claim to know the market - but basically Cat5 to Cat6 should be about <1.5 x the cost of Cat5 for the cable and the jacks. So for example, if it's $1000 to do Cat5, expect it to be about ~$1400 for Cat6 (material cost - labor is almost the same). I also remember that depending on the locale, it was costing me between $50 and $75 per run for Cat6 on the last couple jobs. The residential markets do tend to cost a little more because there's more liability and the runs are more difficult.

If you want to go RadioRA, DIY that... don't pay the contractor his markup and learning curve - you'll probably want to learn and change the system anyways.

The HDMI runs seem pricey - a 75' run of HDMI seems to be about $70; rapidrun cables are easier and cost a little more - so figure he's charging $100 for materials and $400 for labor?

The additional quad outlet under the stairs - is he running another circuit? because the outlets will cost him $5... unless he's doing something to provide higher ampacity.

For your structured panels - well, I have the 50" Channel Vision can w/smoked plexi-glass cover - I think it's the most expensive option available - street price is about $240.

This is all so variable - and I hate dealing with contractors... it's my guess that most contractors bill what they don't understand at a higher rate in case they screw up and have to spend more time on it. Cat5 to Cat6 is an increase in material costs; but the labor is mostly the same (take a tiny bit longer to terminate because of the tighter winds) - adding outlets isn't that hard; adding an additional wire to an existing pull - BFD - labor is the same; material cost per run is probably $30 on average. It's not uncommon for contractors to price things they don't like or understand high because they hope you'll either pass on them, or if they have to deal with callbacks, they'll make their money back.

The shade motors I have no idea about - dedicated breaker per room? I thought most shades were low voltage, but this is an area I know nothing about - so hopefully others will chime in.

Work2Play, thanks so much for your feedback. I'm definitely going to DIY on the RadioRA, and probably provide them with HDMI cables that I purchase. Then there is no way that they can charge too much more on the installation for each drop. Can you link me to a retailer that sells the products that you'd recommend for these two line items:

4. Upgrade low voltage structured panel to hinged door panel 48" $295 (needed for extra cat 6 drops)
5. Upgrade low voltage structured panel with standard cover $245 (needed for extra cat 6 drops)

That way I can negotiate the price on these items, and ensure that I am getting quality panels. Do you think I should also require a certain brand for speaker wire and CAT6 cable? Or does the installation job matter much more than the brand, and therefore this request wouldn't really help...

 

[Del91574]

That way I can negotiate the price on these items, and ensure that I am getting quality panels. Do you think I should also require a certain brand for speaker wire and CAT6 cable? Or does the installation job matter much more than the brand, and therefore this request wouldn't really help...

A quality cable is a quality cable, per se, for a category cable, I'd just make sure it has been sweep tested and speaker cable isn't too much different, as long as it's a decent product. Not too much difference overall IMHO.

There was a article a while back where they blind tested "audiophiles" on patch cables and speaker cables and they used $4000 speaker cables and a couple of wire coathangers for the speaker wire and there was no difference to these people. Monster cable and others like them just have really good marketing plans.

 

[apostolakisl]

A quality cable is a quality cable, per se, for a category cable, I'd just make sure it has been sweep tested and speaker cable isn't too much different, as long as it's a decent product. Not too much difference overall IMHO.

There was a article a while back where they blind tested "audiophiles" on patch cables and speaker cables and they used $4000 speaker cables and a couple of wire coathangers for the speaker wire and there was no difference to these people. Monster cable and others like them just have really good marketing plans.

I so love to hear that! Coat hangers equal to stupidly overpriced monster cable. It is called perceived quality, the more you charge for it, the better it must be, and the more I want it. I once knew a guy who could sell you a bag of shi% for $100 becaue he knew how to do that! I have always felt that sound quality for the most part is driven primarily by the quality of the speakers.