Broconne's Wiring Adventure

[broconne]

I don't install HA stuff in my homes for resale value. If it is a deciding factor then great! But it really is for the enjoyment of me and my family. I can't tell you how many time I walk in at night with a handful of kids and groceries and the lights just magically come on. That alone is worth every penny I have spent! Not to mention I have a very good alarm system and my outdoor lights come on at dusk even when I am not here.

Anyway what are all those pipe chases for? Is that for the vac system? Will your builder let you do any of the installation yourself? It's obvious Level 1 is where all the money is being spent. I personally am starting to think whole home audio is overrated. I will tell you why: almost all TV providers (comcast or directv) have just tons of music channels. Sure the speakers aren't as good but get a sound bar if you care that much down the road. I doubt there is a room in your house that you would listen to music that doesn't have a TV. The only place might be outside and that shouldn't be too difficult to correct.

The one thing among many others that I wish I had in my house and it looks like a retrofit option isn't available is intercom. This place is pretty large and we can get lost BUT the biggest issue is my kids are still very young (two under the age of 4) and we still use a monitor to listen in on them. Well half the darn time it is out of range and just drives us crazy! If I had a decent intercom I could monitor each of their rooms all night long...

Maybe the next house!


Neil

As for the whole home audio. I agree TVs are compelling for doing audio. However, we have no plans for a TV in the dining room, breakfast room, etc.


The pipe chases are not for the Vac system. They are for future proofing and in many cases they were cheaper than running 2 different wires. I have detailed the pipe chases as I have gone through each room. However, here is a consolidated list:

 

[heffneil]

just seems awfully expensive. Why not do direct runs to each room and then run a 2 inch or multiple 2 inch conduits from the basement to the attic. Later if something better comes out you can refish down?

Neil

 

[broconne]

just seems awfully expensive. Why not do direct runs to each room and then run a 2 inch or multiple 2 inch conduits from the basement to the attic. Later if something better comes out you can refish down?

Neil

Direct runs of what?
An ethernet run unterminated cost me $60. Two of those runs costs me almost the same as a pipe chase. A run of 2cat5/2coax costs $210 which is almost double a pipe chase.


My attic floor is tongue and groove plywood, that is glued together, then glued and nailed down. Pulling it up will not trivial.

There are 6 chases spec'd from the basement to the attic. I probably will not be able to get all of them, it will depend how things look once the walls are up if there is enough space for those 6 runs.

 

[heffneil]

Ok I didn't know you were finishing the floor in the attic that does complicate things. Perhaps you can smurf tube it yourself? Is the LV contractor putting in the pipe and the cable in that price?

Are you comfortable ending the cables yourself? If that will save you money I can assure you it is really trivial. Ending Coax is very easy know with a good stripper and a compression tool. The Cat5 is just as easy with a $60 punchdown tool but takes more time.

Neil

 

[broconne]

Ok I didn't know you were finishing the floor in the attic that does complicate things. Perhaps you can smurf tube it yourself? Is the LV contractor putting in the pipe and the cable in that price?

Are you comfortable ending the cables yourself? If that will save you money I can assure you it is really trivial. Ending Coax is very easy know with a good stripper and a compression tool. The Cat5 is just as easy with a $60 punchdown tool but takes more time.

Neil

Yep - the attic floor being finished does certainly complicate things. But it is included in the house price and much better than trying to bring up all that plywood myself at a later date.

Yep, those prices are from the LV sub - sadly I can't do any LV work myself until the house changes hands and I own it.

Hopefully, I wont have any cables terminated. I have no issues doing CAT5 or Coax terminations.. Both are easy-peasy. I am hoping to get a couple of these pipe-chases "thrown in". The house comes with 5 2cat5/2coax runs. I am hoping to remove all of those and credit them for 1 or more pipe chases each. But that is still under negotiation with the builder.

 

[Neurorad]

That attic floor would be pretty easy to get up, if you have a saw and/or pry-bar. I wouldn't worry about ripping parts up in the future, and replacing sections. Very cheap to do, for you or someone else. It's not finished hardwood, laminate, or tile. That's basically what every subfloor is composed of.

If it's an option, have them use non-tongue/groove plywood, and have them screw it down for easier replacement of sections.

If you want to finish the attic space in the future, you'll probably have to rip up that floor, install 'daughter' joists, and replace the floor anyway.

Bottom line - it's not a finished floor. Or did I miss something?

 

[broconne]

That attic floor would be pretty easy to get up, if you have a saw and/or pry-bar. I wouldn't worry about ripping parts up in the future, and replacing sections. Very cheap to do, for you or someone else. It's not finished hardwood, laminate, or tile. That's basically what every subfloor is composed of.

If it's an option, have them use non-tongue/groove plywood, and have them screw it down for easier replacement of sections.

If you want to finish the attic space in the future, you'll probably have to rip up that floor, install 'daughter' joists, and replace the floor anyway.

Bottom line - it's not a finished floor. Or did I miss something?

It is not a finished floor, but I would rather avoid ripping it up if I can.

I may see if I can get non-tongue and groove - ask them not to glue it and then I might be able to save a few grand and run the smurf pipe myself.

I don't believe I would need any daughter joists - the attic is supposed to be ready to finish.

 

[broconne]

Master Suite:
Last Room - What am I going to do with these new found Visio skills now?

This last one is a bit daunting!

H/A Equipment:
4 Occupancy Sensors
3 Touchscreen pre-wires
1 Keypad pre-wire
2 Temperature/Humidity pre-wires
4 Door contacts
6 Window contacts


Home Audio:
2 - Audio Pre-wires. One in the bathroom and one in the bedroom.


Lighting:
15 ALC/OnQ pre-wires. Three as you enter the room, one for the recessed lights, one for the fan, one for the light in the fan. Three by each side of the bed. One for the recessed, one for the lamps on the nightstand tables and one for the light in the fan. Two in the sitting room, one for the fan one for the light in the fan. Four as you enter the bathroom, one for the ceiling light, one for the vanity lights, and one for each recessed can over the tub and shower. One in the closet for the closet light. One more in the water closet for the ceiling light in that room.


Security:
1 Smoke Pre-Wire
1 CO Pre-Wire
6 Window contacts

Pipe Chases (6):
3 for touch panels
3 for TVs. One in bedroom, one in water closet, one in the corner viewable from the bath tub.



H/A Goals:
(1) Provide a touch screens by both sides of the bed.
(2) Provide a touch screen in closet (Mostly for forecasts, current temp)
(3) Turn lights on when entering the room depending on time of day. Turn lights off if unoccupied for a duration.
(4) Turn lights on in closet when door is opened, continue on based on occupancy. Turn off after duration unoccupied.
(5) Turn fan(s) on or off depending on temperature and occupancy status.
(6) Turn on lights on for night time bathroom use based on occupancy and light state.
(7) Turn on/off vent fan depending on humidity level.
(8) Turn on/off vent fan in water closet depending on occupancy status and duration occupied.



The master suite:

 

[felixrosbergen]

Check the location of the volume control and light switch locations in the bathroom. It's not very sensible when looking at the door swing. Maybe good to go back and check all other rooms for this.

Maybe i missed it earlier in the thread, but I assume that the 2" chases replace pre-wire for network, phone, CATV, components, etc?? Whats the purpose of the one in the closet and the toilet?

What are you putting in the wall where these pipe chases end in the room? You could have a single or double gang LV 'mudring'. I have a 2 gang at my main TV location but the 12 Quickport slots that it provides are actually not enough. So far i have there:
- F-Type (Coax antenna, fallback for SageTV)
- Cat6 (SageTV)
- Cat5 (Wii)
- Cat5 (Reserved for serial control of surround amp)
- Cat5 (Reserved for IR)
- 5 x RCA Component
- 4 x speaker binding post
- RCA for Subwoofer (run to other location in the room

Thats what need terminated. I have an unused and unreserved cat6 and a cat5 in the wall.

If you expect something similat you may want to look at a 3 gang LV mudring so you can get 18 ports. Since a panel with this many wires becomes quick hard to stuff into the wall (e.g. RG6QS isn't all that flexible) maybe splititng it up into an adjacent 2 and and a 1 gang would be a good idea. Even then if you have a exterior wall based on 2x4's then you may have trouble stuffing it all in. Most higher end builders (which i think your house will definetely fit into the category) use 2x6 for exterior walls though.

For most locations i woudl expect a single gang to be sufficient since you can get up to 6 ports in one of those.

 

[beelzerob]

Ya know, I don't detecting buildups of carbon monoxide is going to be your problem in the toilet room.... :mellow:

 

[felixrosbergen]

oh...and the field of view of the Motion/Occupancy in the closet may be obscrued by shelving or items on the shelving...i don't have a better alternative suggestion for you though. Perhaps there is a location with a full lenght mirror in the closet where you can be sure to have an unobstructed view.

Are you going to print these plans and give them to the LV guy to work from? I found that in my case the lead LV guy walks around the house and marks on the studs where eveything goes, then his worker bees follow and run all the cables. You can't expect the worker bees to read a drawing properly.

http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11917

I only found this method lacking for the following situations:
- mounting stuff on exterior walls (e.g outside siren/stobe for alarm). I adjusted the method for this note (EXT) on the 'Face' portion. e.g. OS-1-GAR-N(EXT)-1 would be the Outside Siren on the 1st floor Garage on the Exterior of the North wall.
- It does cover very well when you have a room within a room. This shoudl be pretty rare but happens in my case where my basement in not finished so the whole room is called BAS and i have the stair case coming down in the middle. I mounted sense temp sensors and motion on this staitcase. This could also occur if you have a U shaped room or something else funky like that.
- It didnt cover having one cable/wire server more than one purpose. I ran into this today when i ran the wiring for the outside siren and stroke and 1 22-4 cable is serving both the Strobe (code OF for Outside Flasher since Outside Strobe woudl result in OS which is already taken) and the tamped contact. For this i adopted the method to simply put both devices in the first segment of the code. So this became: OF/TP-1-GAR-N(EXT)-1. This still made total sense to me and i was happy that me method easilly adapted to the new need. This last example is the most complex i've run into so far.

I'll be updating the method to include/cover the nuances mentioned above and then I'll have it posted in my showcase thread if you're interested.

You have a plan to give to the LV guy on how to label the cable and such? I am using the method i described in the thread linked below and am very very happy with it. No cheat sheet required, the label tells me exactly where the output point is. If you don't tell him anything you'd probably end up with a bunch of handwritten labels. You could mark ID's on these drawings before handing them to the LV guy.

Looking at the plan again you may want to consider a network or phone/fax connection somewhere in that sitting room area just in case.

Also we have a door from our master bedroom into the closet as well as from the bathroom and we're very happy with that. You do loose some closet wall space that way, but your closet seems plenty big.

Any pre-wire for a touchscreen in the master bedroom to control the whole house (e.g. CQC or whatevr)?

Is there any color coding plan to your cabling? I'm a firm believe in not using specific color coded cabling for phone/LAN/etc that is likely to be 're-purposed' at a later time, but for all the stuff that is fixed (smoke sensors, window sensors, speakers, etc) it woud make sense. With a good labelling system you won't need it though.

Maybe i missed it earlier in this massive thread....do you have a layout of your basement / wiring room? Any estimate for the number of can's/space you'll be needing? Check out my showcase thread for the wall mounted Quickport patch panel i used, I'm very happy with it. I need to update some picks on that though. Will do tomorow.

 

[broconne]

Check the location of the volume control and light switch locations in the bathroom. It's not very sensible when looking at the door swing. Maybe good to go back and check all other rooms for this.

Good catch! I fixed that.

Maybe i missed it earlier in the thread, but I assume that the 2" chases replace pre-wire for network, phone, CATV, components, etc?? Whats the purpose of the one in the closet and the toilet?

They do replace standard pre-wire. They were cheaper and more flexible.
The one in the closet is for for a closet touchscreen. I want to be able to pull up weather, check tasks for the day, etc.
The one near the toilet is for a TV in there.. Small flat panel tvs are nice and cheap these days

What are you putting in the wall where these pipe chases end in the room? You could have a single or double gang LV 'mudring'. I have a 2 gang at my main TV location but the 12 Quickport slots that it provides are actually not enough. So far i have there:
- F-Type (Coax antenna, fallback for SageTV)
- Cat6 (SageTV)
- Cat5 (Wii)
- Cat5 (Reserved for serial control of surround amp)
- Cat5 (Reserved for IR)
- 5 x RCA Component
- 4 x speaker binding post
- RCA for Subwoofer (run to other location in the room

In the media room there will be a separate dual ring for speakers. Most TV locations I think will just be a single gang with old work boxes. I prefer the old work box because i can pull that out and expand the size easy for a dual gang.

If you expect something similat you may want to look at a 3 gang LV mudring so you can get 18 ports. Since a panel with this many wires becomes quick hard to stuff into the wall (e.g. RG6QS isn't all that flexible) maybe splititng it up into an adjacent 2 and and a 1 gang would be a good idea. Even then if you have a exterior wall based on 2x4's then you may have trouble stuffing it all in. Most higher end builders (which i think your house will definetely fit into the category) use 2x6 for exterior walls though.

Some walls are 2x4 and some are 2x6 depends on the location.

For most locations i woudl expect a single gang to be sufficient since you can get up to 6 ports in one of those.

I agree.

 

[broconne]

Ya know, I don't detecting buildups of carbon monoxide is going to be your problem in the toilet room.... :mellow:

LOL.. the "CO" there is for "corner mount". Which I started out with before I found out I couldn't find any non ceiling mount occupancy sensors.. Which I still don't know how to deal with. I want them to be directional instead of omni directional to avoid false positives.. But i can't seem to find any LV corner mount occupancy sensors.

 

[broconne]

oh...and the field of view of the Motion/Occupancy in the closet may be obscrued by shelving or items on the shelving...i don't have a better alternative suggestion for you though. Perhaps there is a location with a full lenght mirror in the closet where you can be sure to have an unobstructed view.

I worry about all of the occupancy sensors. I have only found one LV occupancy sensor and it is ceiling mounted. I am not sure how those will play out.

Are you going to print these plans and give them to the LV guy to work from? I found that in my case the lead LV guy walks around the house and marks on the studs where eveything goes, then his worker bees follow and run all the cables. You can't expect the worker bees to read a drawing properly.

i am of two minds on that. I might just keep this myself and walk around with him and talk about where everything will go. I might get a few mistakes "in my favor" that way. I can easily correct any that aren't in my favor.

http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11917

I only found this method lacking for the following situations:
- mounting stuff on exterior walls (e.g outside siren/stobe for alarm). I adjusted the method for this note (EXT) on the 'Face' portion. e.g. OS-1-GAR-N(EXT)-1 would be the Outside Siren on the 1st floor Garage on the Exterior of the North wall.
- It does cover very well when you have a room within a room. This shoudl be pretty rare but happens in my case where my basement in not finished so the whole room is called BAS and i have the stair case coming down in the middle. I mounted sense temp sensors and motion on this staitcase. This could also occur if you have a U shaped room or something else funky like that.
- It didnt cover having one cable/wire server more than one purpose. I ran into this today when i ran the wiring for the outside siren and stroke and 1 22-4 cable is serving both the Strobe (code OF for Outside Flasher since Outside Strobe woudl result in OS which is already taken) and the tamped contact. For this i adopted the method to simply put both devices in the first segment of the code. So this became: OF/TP-1-GAR-N(EXT)-1. This still made total sense to me and i was happy that me method easilly adapted to the new need. This last example is the most complex i've run into so far.

I'll be updating the method to include/cover the nuances mentioned above and then I'll have it posted in my showcase thread if you're interested.

I haven't even thought about labeling, I will be following your thread with interest to sort that out.

You have a plan to give to the LV guy on how to label the cable and such? I am using the method i described in the thread linked below and am very very happy with it. No cheat sheet required, the label tells me exactly where the output point is. If you don't tell him anything you'd probably end up with a bunch of handwritten labels. You could mark ID's on these drawings before handing them to the LV guy.

Good point, I know they use a labeling system. But I need to request the details of that.

Looking at the plan again you may want to consider a network or phone/fax connection somewhere in that sitting room area just in case.

I had one, I took it down to save some money. It is a tough one. I would rather watch TV from the bed. I can't envision a scenario where I would move the TV over there instead. Any thoughts? It is only $130 if there is a strong motivation I might add it back in.

Also we have a door from our master bedroom into the closet as well as from the bathroom and we're very happy with that. You do loose some closet wall space that way, but your closet seems plenty big.

It may seem big, but it isn't. It is actually a really poorly designed closet. I made it a box so I could draw it, but take a look at the actual floorplan and you get a better idea.

Because of that angle on one side you lose that wall for useful storage. Cutting into the other wall would really reduce the total storage in there. I sort of which we could add that door, I think that would be very useful.

Any pre-wire for a touchscreen in the master bedroom to control the whole house (e.g. CQC or whatevr)?

Those two pipe chases on either side of the bed serve that fuction.

Is there any color coding plan to your cabling? I'm a firm believe in not using specific color coded cabling for phone/LAN/etc that is likely to be 're-purposed' at a later time, but for all the stuff that is fixed (smoke sensors, window sensors, speakers, etc) it woud make sense. With a good labelling system you won't need it though.

I don't have any. I had briefly discussed with the LV guy that I wanted different colors for audio cabling, compared to network cabling, etc. He told me he can "only get" white cat5 cable. I may need to remind him who is paying the ball.

Maybe i missed it earlier in this massive thread....do you have a layout of your basement / wiring room? Any estimate for the number of can's/space you'll be needing? Check out my showcase thread for the wall mounted Quickport patch panel i used, I'm very happy with it. I need to update some picks on that though. Will do tomorow.

Maybe I do have something left to visio
If you go back to the first page of the thread you can look at the basement floor plan. I plan to run all LV to that room between the mechanical room and the exercise room.
I am away on business but when I get back I will go over to the model, measure that space and start on the visios for racks, etc in that room.

 

[felixrosbergen]

The 'only white' on Cat5e is BS...it comes in all colors and shouldnt be much more expensive...point him to monoprice.com, might be cheaper than what he's getting from his suppliers.

I did however find the cat5 that my LV guy used to be firmer/thicer than what i got from monoprice. Not sure if the guage if different or the jacket or what.

I am anxiourly following your occupancy detection adventure, from reading these forums it seems to be a difficult topic both from a hardware and a programming point of view.