Cloud Based Smart Device Forum

[rismoney]

I agree with you guys regarding the maturity levels found in many open source projects.   In the end the consumer doesn't care about open source, only the tinkerers.  But those are the people you want on your side to bring innovation.  The market is ripe to embrace a winner imho.
 
To make a comparison, I look at a company like docker, that pivoted from dotcloud.  Or PuppetLabs.  People would pay for features and support that go above and beyond the base offerings.  They can get behind things that make their interactions with devices better.
 
> then the author of the product becomes no different from anyone else, wrt to service and support, and a larger company can do it more cheaply and will have much more visibility
 
This is not really true.  I'd like to think that the author becomes respected code manager and the company behind it is the steward, maintainer and face to the project.  That is what I see on successful github projects.   I think its rarer to see a hostile fork/code hijack.  Those generally don't win over communities.

 

[pete_c]

Using the cloud for automation is a win win for the IT industry, cheap for them and easy button for the consumer.
 
I mean folks today are already used to telling the world when they have had a bowel movement via twitter or face book. 
 
Why not then share when a light is turned on, or their heart rate while they sleep, et al.

 

[ano]

Using the cloud for automation is a win win for the IT industry, cheap for them and easy button for the consumer.
 
I mean folks today are already used to telling the world when they have had a bowel movement via twitter or face book. 
 
Why not then share when a light is turned on, or their heart rate while they sleep, et al.

Pete, that reminds me, have you been getting enough fiber lately? 

 

[Dean Roddey]

This is not really true.  I'd like to think that the author becomes respected code manager and the company behind it is the steward, maintainer and face to the project.  That is what I see on successful github projects.   I think its rarer to see a hostile fork/code hijack.  Those generally don't win over communities.

 
But we aren't talking about communities here, we are talking about markets. Once you get beyond the core, loyal enthusiasts, who are never remotely enough to support any real company, you are into those folks who don't know or care about these issues. They will go with whoever markets to them best, and that's always larger companies.
 
Ask any companies who have been in automation for years or decades, and suddenly you go to a place like Reddit and you'd think that SmartThings invented home automation, or that Apple (which has delivered almost nothing) is going to be the savior of automation, etc...
 
Or look at the companies who put out products based on Linux. Do any of the folks who buy those products complain that these companies are benefiting massively from the free work of others? Not a bit of of it. They want a product, and the company making the product has a marketing department and the folks who work on Linux for free don't (because selling products gives you the resources to do that, and working on stuff for free doesn't.)
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against open source. As I've said, I've done it myself, having made substantial contributions to the Apache project (the C++ XML parser, and parts of the Java one.) But it is really better at plumbing than products.

 

[rismoney]

Interesting thoughts. I am on the cusp of buying HS3/CQC. It is not where I really want to be, but the honest situation is that they are long-standing splutions that work with many devices. I do fear the revolv with COTS.

UPB is at the core of my house and most new fangled controllers can't deal with upstart files. UPB hasn't marketed itself well or made modern inroads like multiplatform upstart or push integration side. It could ultimately go revolv.

On OS front, Openhab is interesting but Java is a turnoff and upb support lackluster (in a seemingly defunct PR). There are probably a bunch of other open source products with similar approaches.

I am convinced that the space is akin to package managers on Linux. Each time a distro or someone tries to create the ultimate single package standard, there is 1 more package manager in the wild not deprecating any of their predecessors.

I detest license keys, and other antipiracy approaches that cripple software, place vendor phone homes, or require support calls for legit usage. But that's the state of things right now.
I rather pay and be done. Or subscribe and be done. I prefer to see source since I can code and can potentially inspect and fix it, and not go on a homseer board and complain and go unanswered as an example. If revolv open sourced server side then users could leverage a iaas or other cloud and stand up what they need for non-brickage.

 

[ano]

Interesting thoughts. I am on the cusp of buying HS3/CQC. It is not where I really want to be, but the honest situation is that they are long-standing splutions that work with many devices. I do fear the revolv with COTS.

UPB is at the core of my house and most new fangled controllers can't deal with upstart files. UPB hasn't marketed itself well or made modern inroads like multiplatform upstart or push integration side. It could ultimately go revolv.

You might want to do your due diligence on this before jumping in.  I haven't used HS2 or CQC in many years, and never used HS3, but lack of good UPB support was really why i stopped using both of them.  Demo everything before plunking down money.

 

[pete_c]

Relating to Homeseer 3 and UPB there are three mechanisms / means of tranport today to UPB.  I have tested and used all three.
 
1 - Homeseer included UPB plugin - this is a port from the Homeseer 2 plugin - it has not been updated with new UPB devices
2 - Spud's UPB plugin which includes all of the new bells and whistles of new UPB devices
3 - Rob's OmniPro plugin which lets me talk to UPB via the OPII - It has been working well.
 
IE: I can manually turn on or turn off my UPB switches and see the status on my OmniPro Homeseer unit variable status and UPB via plugin variable status.
 
I won't comment here on fiber comments...and agree with Ano that you should try CQC and Homeseer / UPB stuff before you buy it...

 

[Dean Roddey]

I detest license keys, and other antipiracy approaches that cripple software, place vendor phone homes, or require support calls for legit usage. But that's the state of things right now.
 

 
All you have to do is talk people out of stealing anything they can get their hands on without the slightest thought to the damage done Not everyone of course, but far more than enough even when it requires effort. If it didn't require any effort, it would be completely insane. It's crazy these days, when you now have a generation that has grown up believing that they have the right to anything on the net, to the point that they often get livid if they are prevented in some way from doing so.
 
As long as that continues, companies have no choice but to try to protect themselves. Otherwise, the effort and risk just wouldn't make it worth even bother to create new products.

 

[rismoney]

I don't buy that. I think the new generation is all about subscriptions and small payments for items like songs and services. People rather pay 25 a month in perpetuity than $500 upfront. Even after month 20. They figure within 2 years there will probably be something else new to switch to or they will continue to overpay. This is why Microsoft (cloud aside) makes all its money on software assurance.

I tend to think most people who pirate would not have bought the software legitimately. I also tend to think people engaged in HA have disposable income, are probably decently educated and tech savvy and see benefit of supporting a software maker that provides them benefit as they believe it will only advance their own causes.

 

[rismoney]

Ano since you stopped using CQC/HS2 because of UPB what do you use now?

 

[Dean Roddey]

I don't buy that. I think the new generation is all about subscriptions and small payments for items like songs and services. People rather pay 25 a month in perpetuity than $500 upfront. Even after month 20. They figure within 2 years there will probably be something else new to switch to or they will continue to overpay. This is why Microsoft (cloud aside) makes all its money on software assurance.

 
That model is not universally applicable, at least not at that price. You can lease a car, but not for $20 a month. Things that are necessarily sold in lower volumes and have higher development costs aren't going to work like that.
 

I tend to think most people who pirate would not have bought the software legitimately.

 
That's pretty much the attitude I was talking about. The people who didn't buy the software spent the money on something else, hence piracy redistributes money from those companies who have stealable products to those that have unstealable products. And theft promotes theft. Why should I pay for it, if you stole it and got to have that and the other thing that you couldn't steal? Why should I be the one who spends my good money to support the product so that you can get it for free?
 
If 100,000 people stole the product, and even 10% would have paid if they couldn't steal it, that's 10,000 customers, which is a HUGE number for a small software company.
 
You really don't want to get me started on this subject.
 
 

 also tend to think people engaged in HA have disposable income, are probably decently educated and tech savvy and see benefit of supporting a software maker that provides them benefit as they believe it will only advance their own causes.

 
The bulk of real automation revenue comes from systems installed by professional installers, to people who wouldn't know or care about these issues. They get what the installer is willing to install and support generally. They may do some research but won't begin to really understand the issues involved because of the time required. They reason most of them have disposable income is because they are busy doing other things.

 

[ano]

Ano since you stopped using CQC/HS2 because of UPB what do you use now?

Everything is now just on the Omni Pro II.  I use a microcontroller on a serial port to control an LED sign, I control Somfy blinds, HLC UPB lighting, Zigbee locks, switches, thermostat and email board and HAIku/Space for phone access.  I did give up some things like I used to have a large 3-line Alpha LED sign that had weather and appointment reminders, but I can live with that and my wife thought that it was to big anyway. :wacko:  In exchange it always works, its very fast and no Windows updates. 
 
The Omni can really do a bunch with some tricks imagination.

 

[picta]

ano, does HAI panel see the user code that unlocked the zigbee lock? Or it can only detect the lock status like with zwave models?

 

[BobS0327]

Here's a Nest update...
 
http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/5/11374358/nest-revolv-smart-home-hub-disable-user-compensation

 

[ano]

ano, does HAI panel see the user code that unlocked the zigbee lock? Or it can only detect the lock status like with zwave models?

No, can only see status but it does add this in the the event log. You could install the Leviton RFID access reader next to the door and use that to send the signal to the lock. That does keep track of the user.
 
I think the Kwikset locks only has 2 codes.