CQC vs Mainlobby for HA

[dgeffs]

Has anyone done any comparisons between CQC and Mainlobby for HA use? I need to control a JDS Stargate and both of these programs allow the user to build pretty slick GUI's. I know ML has a plugin to HS that in turn can control Stargate but this seems kind of a round about way of doing things. Looks like CQC can control some other panels - is this done via serial port? Could the Stargate be directly controlled from either via serial port?

Dale

 

[upstatemike]

You might want to add ECS to your list to compare. It directly supports Stargate and some cool stuff that you might want to use with your Stargate like Insteon, W800RF, Security Cameras, etc. Check it out at omnipotencesoftware.com

 

[Dean Roddey]

CQC would require a driver to be done for the Stargate. I'd have to look around and dig up a protocol document to see what level of complexity would be involved in that. So far we've stuck to the 'big two' of Elk and Omni since they seem to be the most common. These types of devices tend to be pretty exensive and very labor intensive to get a full featured, rock solid driver done for, so it's hard for us to justify doing them unless the panel is a big seller.

But anyone can do a driver and if someone was interested in taking it on in the meantime, we'd certainly be happy to help out with that effort as well.

 

[upstatemike]

I can't write my name let alone a driver but I can point you to the protocol document. It is available here.

 

[Dean Roddey]

From a quick glance through that, would you really even need the Stargate? You could basically do the same with CQC, a Smarthome X-10 controller, and an inexpensive Carl's electronics I/O box (maybe two of them if you needed more I/O.)

 

[upstatemike]

I have never read the protocol spec (as I wouldn't understand it anyway) so I'm not sure what it told you. As far as replicating the function of the Stargate on another platform, I would be open to that but have never found an easy way to do it. Some of the issues include:

I use lots of voice announcements tied to events. Most of them involve speaking the value of variables (thermostat setpoint, outside temperature, total runtime of the furnace, etc.) Speaking variable values is not supported on a platform like HAI or Elk M1 so I would have to run a PC platform like CQC.

I also have a lot of events trigger when a variable changes value (if setpoint changes value then speak new setpoint); also not directly supported by HAI or ELK.

I have about 80 hard wired digital inputs which most PC based systems can't directly support so some kind of control panel is still required to support that. (Both Elk and HAI can handle this but don't offer any compelling advantage over stargate in this area).

The internal voice board on the stargate has robust internal switching for interconnecting line-in, line-out, phone-line, and speaker connections. This could probably be replicated with a combination of a sound card, modem, and some external equipment to manage the switching, but it wouldn't be pretty.

I use lots of RS-485 devices. Besides the 8 thermostats I have a device to display messages on a TV screen, a bunch of LCD text keypads, and some LED keypads. These are plug and Play with Stargate and would probably be a lot of work to implement under CQC.

The web interface is also plug and play on Stargate but I assume that is also true for CQC?

I have figured out how to interface my Stargate to Slimserver and Virtual Weather Station. It isn't clear how I would integrate these two critical items with CQC or ELK or HAI or whatever so I am still holding back until I can see a specific migration path.

 

[DavidL]

From a MainLobby perspective, Like Dean mentioned for CQC - there isn't a StarGate plugin written for MainLobby yet. I suspect that writing one would not be considered a high priority item either since I think the panel has reached it's marketing maturity (my guess). If a VB developer was interested in building one for MainLobby, Cinemar would provide plugin developer support.

As you mentioned, you could go MainLobby Client <> MLServer <> MLHSPlugin <> Homeseer <> Startgate plugin <> Stargate.

Might seem complicated, but I betcha the slowest link in the bunch will be the actual Stargate controller. The above could be done in a night versus spending weeks developing a plugin that would cost probably just as much (if you can't code it).

Don't forget you are also getting all the benefits of all those parts in the process!

 

[Dean Roddey]

I have about 80 hard wired digital inputs which most PC based systems can't directly support so some kind of control panel is still required to support that. (Both Elk and HAI can handle this but don't offer any compelling advantage over stargate in this area).

Yeh, if you have that many digital I/O, you are going to end up with some sort of signficantly endowed I/O box. I was going on the fact that you probably had a fairly small number.

The events, speaking the values, and web server would be easy in 1.5. The other stuff would require some new toys.

If you do find someone in the Stargate community who would be interested in this and has the software skills to do the driver, definitely send them my way. I can help them by getting a basic driver worked out that they'd just need to take the rest of the way.

 

[upstatemike]

Main Lobbybe Dale's best solution assuming he wants to mess with Homeseer. I tried Homeseer a year ago and found it didn't add enough value for the trouble involved. (I did not try Main Lobby but have heard good things about it so maybe that would have changed my opinion) I found much simpler ways to do most of what I needed.

I'm going to keep watching CQC and ECS as a potential future replacement for stargate but so far there is no easy migration path.

 

[upstatemike]

Yeh, if you have that many digital I/O, you are going to end up with some sort of signficantly endowed I/O box. I was going on the fact that you probably had a fairly small number.

Ideal I/O would be a board with 16 digital inputs and 4 relays that just plugs into your network and is directly recognized by a software program like CQC. (The ideal board also needs to be in the same price range as ELK I/O boards not some expensive network appliance box!)

The software should support at least 32 such boards.

 

[Dean Roddey]

(The ideal board also needs to be in the same price range as ELK I/O boards not some expensive network appliance box!)

That's not quite a fair comparison. In order ot use the Elk I/O boards, you have to buy the Elk. It would probably be the same with your ideal type scenario. In order to use the I/O boards you'd have to buy some box that sits on the network and provides the smarts. If you want that in every board separately, then you'd have to compare it to what Elk could provide their boards for every one of them was a separate network node.

 

[Mark S.]

As you mentioned, you could go MainLobby Client <> MLServer <> MLHSPlugin <> Homeseer <> Stargate plugin <> Stargate.

I have been doing this for months. Works great, no noticable lag time.

Mark

 

[upstatemike]

Dean-

I'm hoping the "smarts" will be in the host program. An ELK board just converts hardwired I/O to data and places it on a serial buss. I just want the same thing only placing the data into a TC/IP message.

I'm trying to avoid having to code in two different locations, i.e. go into the M1 to define the I/O points and then go into CQC to use them. CQC should be able to define 192.168.0.114:9001/1 as "doorbell input" without an intermediate box. The hardware should not be much more expensive than existing Elk stuff since the only difference is exchanging RS485 for Ethernet where economies of scale have already given us $5 network cards.

(Bear in mind that I am not a technical person and may be completely underestimating what is required to do this.)

 

[DavidL]

Mark S, thanx for the confimation. How hard is the Stargate plugin to configure? Does it create devices to correspond to the Stargate I/O in Homeseer for you when you setup the plugin?

EDIT: just realized you caught a typo Thats the ole motocross rider in me always thinking about the starT gate.

 

[Dean Roddey]

(Bear in mind that I am not a technical person and may be completely underestimating what is required to do this.)

It's more of a business issue. The economies of scale that apply to ethernet cards don't necessarily appy to things that have ethernet cards in them.

Multi-port serial boxes are a prime example. IP based multi-port serial servers remain remain expensive though they've come down a lot recently. There hasn't been enough of a market for them to get the price down. The same would probably be applicable to I/O boards but even more so. The main market would probably be the industrial automation world, where they probably wouldn't want to put I/O of that sort on the network anyway.

There would always be 'a box' though. The box might be a small thing on the I/O board itself, but there has to be something there to talk to. That box could be pretty smallish but it would still be there. And of course to make really semi-user friendly it should have some way of setting the address locally before putting it on the network, and that adds cost. It's harder to provide local setting of an IP address than it is to spin a button and select an RS-485 numeric slot address.