Dipping my toes into HA - Advice?

[broconne]

Background:
I will be moving out of my current house into an apartment and building a new house. I want to enable a fair amount of DIY automation into the new house. I have a little time, maybe 2 months, before I put my house on the market and want to use some of that to figure out which HA solution I will be going with in the new house. I am obviously new to HA.

Insteon vs. Z-Wave:
I have to admit I like the price/look of the insteon stuff, but the forum reports scare me away. I will initially be trying Z-Wave, it will be more expensive but hopefully I won’t be replacing switches. Also the lack of a fan module for insteon is a deal killer for me.

Test Setup:
I will be testing several components and need some advice/confirmation on my component picks. My test will consist of some lighting and light automation.

Known Components Bedroom:

(1) Leviton Vizia+ 1000W Incandescent Dimmer (LEV-VRI10-1LX) for bedroom light on fan.
(2) Leviton Vizia+ Digital Quiet Fan Speed Control (LEV-VRF01-1LX) for bedroom fan.

Question:
I have two bedside lamps that have push style on/off switches at the point the bulb screws into the socket. I see some manufactures make an item which screws into the socket, is z-wave controllable and contains a manual on/off switch. I don’t like the idea of having two switches – seems like a mistake waiting to happen. Any suggestions? Is there a way to replace the original socket with an always on socket? I didn’t see a lot of options for that at Lowes.

Controllers:
(1) Intermatic Master Remote Control (HA07C)
(2) Intermatic USB Interface (HA22)
(3) CQC 30 Day Trial

Question:
I would like to control the fan and fan speed automatically based on the temperature in the room. I read that LagoTech makes a z-wave compatible temperature module – but have been unable to locate it online, is it vaporware?

The second set of items in my test is for the master bedroom closet.

Components:
(1) Zwave Motion Sensor (ZIR1000)
(2) Intermatic 300W In-Wall Switch/Dimmer (HA06C)


Automation/control:

I want to be able to turn off the lights, turn on/off the fan and adjust fan speed from a controller in my bed. I also want to use CQC to turn off the fan after a certain time in the morning (it often gets left on by accident). I want the motion sensor in the master bedroom closet to automatically turn on the lights and using CQC if no motion is detected after 15 minutes and the lights have not been turned off manually to automatically turn off the light.

Any advice - comments are welcome!

 

[upstatemike]

You might find it useful to look at the Home Automation Comparison Spreadsheet as a starting point.

 

[Steve]

Welcome to CocoonTech. Will you be installing any security in the new house? If so, you may want to look at the Elk M1G or HAI OmniPro as a security and automation controller, then use CQC for the front end and other miscellaneous bits, A/V, etc. If you are building, I would urge you to consider hardwire lighting like maybe ALC/OnQ. It is still wired 'traditionally', but does not depend on wireless or PLC for control. Most important up front is to plan your wiring. Check out the CT wiring guide (in Dans/electrons sig) and plan that first.

 

[aehusted]

sounds like a lot more than your toes will be getting wet

If the fan controller was not a deal killer, I would tell you that Insteon is not as bad as you seem to think. I am only using it in my own house (I'm not an installer), but I am pleased with it so far.

Also, for setups like your bedside lamps, consider using X10 RF remotes or stick on switches as an optional local control. I would never recommend using X10 PLC, but I still like the remotes and motion sensors. They are cheap and you can wire a W800RF antenna to your computer or Elk so there are no power line signal issues.

 

[broconne]

You might find it useful to look at the Home Automation Comparison Spreadsheet as a starting point.

Wow - that is helpful. I really hadn't considered much besides the aftermarket solution - this gives me something to chew on. But nothing to play with ;-)

 

[broconne]

Welcome to CocoonTech. Will you be installing any security in the new house? If so, you may want to look at the Elk M1G or HAI OmniPro as a security and automation controller, then use CQC for the front end and other miscellaneous bits, A/V, etc. If you are building, I would urge you to consider hardwire lighting like maybe ALC/OnQ. It is still wired 'traditionally', but does not depend on wireless or PLC for control. Most important up front is to plan your wiring. Check out the CT wiring guide (in Dans/electrons sig) and plan that first.

Thanks Steve -
Yes I was planning on using an Elk M1G and wiring every door, window with contact sensors, also glass break sensors, temperature sensors in rooms that have fans and motion sensors. I had planned on using CQC for the display and maybe some more complex automation steps (don't know what the ELK can do yet). I didn't want to do A/V on the CQC I want to keep audio separate and was planning on going the window vista MCE with cablecard approach and extenders for video distribution. I will wire the whole house with cat6. Audio is a different topic all together. I like the Nuvo look for the keypads, but the fact that it has a proprietary music server instead of connecting to a NAS is a deal breaker for me. But I don't want to get too far off topic here and I haven't done all my research on the A/V front yet.

I will look at ALC/OnQ - I guess my one fear is being vendor locked and what happens if styles change... Also - how much of that can I DIY? I want to do as much lighting/automation as possible myself - having a house built looks to be expensive as it is

Thanks for the tip. More research to do!

I will also check out Dan's guide.

 

[broconne]

sounds like a lot more than your toes will be getting wet

If the fan controller was not a deal killer, I would tell you that Insteon is not as bad as you seem to think. I am only using it in my own house (I'm not an installer), but I am pleased with it so far.

Also, for setups like your bedside lamps, consider using X10 RF remotes or stick on switches as an optional local control. I would never recommend using X10 PLC, but I still like the remotes and motion sensors. They are cheap and you can wire a W800RF antenna to your computer or Elk so there are no power line signal issues.

Yeah - I don't want to start another Insteon war. Some people seem to be very happy with Insteon. Many people seem to either be replacing it or regret going with it. There are always people who rant on one technology or another - but the number of Insteon ranters scare me a bit.

Does the X10 suggestion solve the problem where I would still have "two switches" to the light? It isn't a big deal, but a concern for me that the wrong switch may get used and I will be constantly going to the light to turn it on rather than the system being automated.

 

[Squintz]

I love CQC but if you plan to center your automation around Z-Wave you may want to inquire about it on the CQC Forums. There is Z-Wave support right now but it is limited. My understanding is that Dean plans to upgrade the Z-Wave driver in the near future.

You might want to consider using an HAI panel along with CQC. From what I am told the HAI has better implementation of Z-Wave than the Elk. I personally use the Elk because of its popularity but it also lacks in many areas such as thermostats. I've never used an HAI but someone once told me that AutomatedOutlet recommends it for Z-Wave. You may want to check with AutomatedOutlet to confirm that and also do your own research.

 

[aehusted]

Yeah - I don't want to start another Insteon war.

Thanks!

Does the X10 suggestion solve the problem where I would still have "two switches" to the light?

I think it does, but perhaps I do not understand your problem.
For example: I have two bedside lamps that are hooked up to Insteon LampLincs. The lamplincs are linked to the Insteon Keypadlinc dimmer that is mounted by the door into the bedroom. This is fine for coming and going, but (as you seem to suggest) does not let you control the lights "locally" (while you are in bed) or from the other side of the room. To solve this, (not a priority yet for me) I will either be using Slimline or PalmPad X10 remotes. In my case, the signal from the remotes will be picked up by the W800RF antenna that is hooked up to my Mac running Indigo. Indigo will control the lamplincs over the power line using Insteon protocol. It is possible to set up similar logic in the M1G as well as almost any other software.
Hope that helps.

 

[Squintz]

One other thing I would like to add is that you should take the oportunity of building a new house to pre-wire for a hardwired system. You may not be able to afford it now but you never know what you will want in the future. It's nice to be prepared.

 

[broconne]

Yeah - I don't want to start another Insteon war.

Thanks!

Does the X10 suggestion solve the problem where I would still have "two switches" to the light?

I think it does, but perhaps I do not understand your problem.
For example: I have two bedside lamps that are hooked up to Insteon LampLincs. The lamplincs are linked to the Insteon Keypadlinc dimmer that is mounted by the door into the bedroom. This is fine for coming and going, but (as you seem to suggest) does not let you control the lights "locally" (while you are in bed) or from the other side of the room. To solve this, (not a priority yet for me) I will either be using Slimline or PalmPad X10 remotes. In my case, the signal from the remotes will be picked up by the W800RF antenna that is hooked up to my Mac running Indigo. Indigo will control the lamplincs over the power line using Insteon protocol. It is possible to set up similar logic in the M1G as well as almost any other software.
Hope that helps.

Ahh OK - It is a slightly different problem I am looking to fix. Primarily, people turning off the light at the source when they shouldn't. Significant other, house cleaners, etc.

 

[broconne]

One other thing I would like to add is that you should take the oportunity of building a new house to pre-wire for a hardwired system. You may not be able to afford it now but you never know what you will want in the future. It's nice to be prepared

Good point. My primary concern as vendor lockout which is why Z-Wave looked so good. It seems OnQ requires CAT5/6 run to each box - are there other options in this space besides OnQ - would cat5/6 run to all switch boxes cover me for the most part? Is there any reason to run CAT5/6 to the power outlet boxes or is that a place that will only work with insteon/z-wave?

I do plan to pre-wire the heck out of this house for both security, sensors, and lighting/HA.

Very naive question - how "unreliable" is zwave? I thought that was pretty rock solid. Is it much more reliable than wired?

 

[IVB]

Very naive question - how "unreliable" is zwave? I thought that was pretty rock solid. Is it much more reliable than wired?

Absolutely not, hardwired is 100.00% accurate. Anything wireless is less than that, could be much less based on your environmental characteristics. I've got a post around here somewhere detailing all the crap I have in my house (power lines, baby monitors, cordless phones. plaster/lathe walls & ceilings, high density neighborhood), and my zWave experience is 90-95% accurate. That means between 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 commands get dropped. It used to be worse until I expanded to >15 devices.

I love CQC but if you plan to center your automation around Z-Wave you may want to inquire about it on the CQC Forums. There is Z-Wave support right now but it is limited. My understanding is that Dean plans to upgrade the Z-Wave driver in the near future.

My personal perspective is that zWave (or insteon or upb or ...) is best for lighting and lighting only. Anything else should be done hardwired (HVAC, motion). The current driver works fine just for lighting, although obviously there's always room for improvement.

 

[aehusted]

Ahh OK - It is a slightly different problem I am looking to fix. Primarily, people turning off the light at the source when they shouldn't. Significant other, house cleaners, etc.

that's a different problem indeed. I think a lower-tech solution might be best in that case.
One low-tech way would be to replace the sockets with switchless ones. The sockets are cheap and easy to find and the wiring is easy as long as you can take the lamps apart.
The really-low-tech solution would be to fix the switches in the ON position with some epoxy or duct tape.

good luck!

 

[Steve]

One other thing I would like to add is that you should take the oportunity of building a new house to pre-wire for a hardwired system. You may not be able to afford it now but you never know what you will want in the future. It's nice to be prepared

Good point. My primary concern as vendor lockout which is why Z-Wave looked so good. It seems OnQ requires CAT5/6 run to each box - are there other options in this space besides OnQ - would cat5/6 run to all switch boxes cover me for the most part? Is there any reason to run CAT5/6 to the power outlet boxes or is that a place that will only work with insteon/z-wave?

There are actually 2 types of hardwired systems. One type, like ALC is where the HV is traditionally wired through the switches, plus there is the Cat% to the switch for control purposes, kind of like UPB or Insteon, but with a Cat5 for control. The other type, like Centralite, uses homerun for HV, where all of you HV wiring is centrally located and there is ONLY a Cat5 to the switch. Some people don't like this because of the dependence on having a central lighting controller, resale, etc, etc. Some people like ALC because it is the same as any other house but with the hardwire control. But there are considerations in mixing LV and HV in the same box.