Electrical Code issues for basement

[felixrosbergen]

Hi All,

I'm looking for some friendly non legal binding (insert other legal disclaimers as necessary here) advice for my basement.

I mounted some additional plywood next to my electrical panel and this is where by ELK and all other HA gear is sitting.

Since i ran out of oulet (one had the one service outlet at the panel) I got some surface mount 2 gang boxes and put extra outlets in connecting them to the panel with Romex which the nailed down with them little 2 prong nails that are such a pain to get in.

Now i heard from some that under a certain elevation in a basement you need to have electrical in conduits for some reason. Is this true?

I did that that my water pump pressure vat is connected via flexible metal conduit (i think that is called BX) to the cutoff switch which is about at 5' off the flloor. From there it's romex up and over to the panel. All the other runs in the house are romex and come into the panel (from above though).

The HVAC and water heater are connected similar to the water pump. BX from device to a wall switch and from there on romex. Except in case of the HVAC they used a conduit up to the top of the wall.

I have also heard you may not double insulate. And that therefore you cannot put romex inside a conduit.

The basement is a walkout basement which is as dry as can be. It has an exterior gravity footing drain.

It seems unlikely to me that if i wanted to finish the basement and needed outlet in there that I would have to put conduit in for all of them.

Some pictures in my showcase for those interested.

I've tried to get a sparky to come out and take a look, but they don't seem to be too eager to just come spend 1 hour to look at what I've done and give me advice on how to correct it if needed. They much rather do the work themselves.

I'm reasonably confortable with electrcity and put extra breaker into my panel without issue.

The question is also important since i do plan to look into finished the basement in the near future (1 or 2 years) and want to start framing and putting electrical in.

 

[drozwood90]

I suppose is depends on your local codes...
Where I live, there is not such "rule", otherwise the builder built my house wrong (~1 year old), and the inspectors did not check him.

For my house they took all the wires from the 1st floor and dipped them into the basement to pass from plug to plug. The outlets IN the basement are GFCI connected, but I think that's just because they shared THAT plug with the outside, as my sump pump's plug is NOT GFCI, NOT in conduit, but a separate run none the less.

--Dan

 

[sic0048]

I think a quick call to your local government's building inspectors office would clear up a lot. They should be able to give you quick answers to your questions. If they ask who you are, just use your neighbor's name

 

[Neurorad]

They can see your name - callerID.

My location is blocked when I call from work.

The electrical inspector is your best resource, if you want to do it 'to code'.

 

[pipeman]

House wiring needs to be protected from damage.
Wiring inside a wall is protected, or in conduit, but I think romex in an open framed wall, is not to code.
That may be why you have partial conduit.

 

[kmitchell]

Non-metallic sheathed wiring below 8 ft. must be protected either by conduit or in a wall. Romex through floor joists that are the ceiling for the basement is OK if the ceiling is 8 ft but if you come down the wall it needs to be protected below 8 ft.

I don't have the NEC section # handy but I can look it up for you if you need me to.

Ken

 

[pipeman]

So, if you used unprotected romex now, then covered the studs, framing, etc. later, you would not be per code now but would be later.

 

[ctwilliams]

Non-metallic sheathed wiring below 8 ft. must be protected either by conduit or in a wall. Romex through floor joists that are the ceiling for the basement is OK if the ceiling is 8 ft but if you come down the wall it needs to be protected below 8 ft.

I don't have the NEC section # handy but I can look it up for you if you need me to.

Ken

Interesting. I guess that "in a wall" means secured to the inside of the stud. Our basement is half finished with the backside as a storage area. All of the wiring for the finished area is romex secured to the inside of the studs with no drywall covering.

 

[pipeman]

I think there may also be differing definitions nationwide, of what is a "finished" or "unfinished" space.
The idea being that an "unfinished" space is assumed to be not habitable or in use now, but will be later.
I think most codes assume that all good homeowners will pull permits when they complete their "unfinished" spaces.

 

[kmitchell]

Agreed, Jensen. In CA, the crawl space under our houses is considered "unfinished" and therefore the romex through our floor joists is not covered nor is it 8 ft off the ground.

Also, the NEC actually states "Non-metallic sheathed wiring below 8 ft. must be protected from damage" which leaves a lot of room for interpretation unless you continue on and read the other sections of the code that talk about the specifics. Many inspectors consider stapled to a stud "protected from damage" as long as it isn't on the edge of the stud where a ladder or similar could be leaned against it and cause damage.

I once had an inspector tell me that a #4 ground wire had to be in conduit as it traveled to the ground rod. I disagreed and so did his boss.

 

[SnyperBob]

Your best bet would be to just run conduit. Typically code is you have to run any exposed circuits like that in conduit. Near me, they now require all circuits be run in conduit or armored cable (inside walls or not)

 

[dem5867]

Since we are talking about basments. I have a GFI question.. I know the plug off to the side of the panel should / has to be GFI'd (Anybody know why ??) do all plugs in a basement need to be GFI'd ??? And what about the 220 volt dryer ,, I don't think I've ever seen a 220 volt GFI.. I ask because it apppears that I have a GFI that don't like the humid weather we were having it would randomly trip. The odd thing I moved the UPS that was pluged into it and it don't appear to trip any more. I have not moved it back to insure it was some thing with the humidity. I ask because I would like to remove the GFI on that plug. If I don't need a GFI on all plugs in the basement how close to the panel can I get before it is required ?? Would it be legal to have a GFI'd outlet on the lower left hand side of the panel and have a non-GFI'd higher up on the right side of the panel ??? What if it is clearly marked "NON GFI" ??

 

[felixrosbergen]

There is definetely a lot of unprotected romex betweent the floor joists of the ground floor and therorefore in the ceiling space of the basement, but i suppose that is over 8'.

However ALL of my circuits coming into the top of the main breaker board are unprotected romex and the top of the breaker board is below 8'. It woudl be pretty impressive however if someone managed to damage it though.

While i am personally satisfied my installation is 'safe' my concern is that if I have a housefire for whatever reason and they come look and see that i potentially had electrical wiring not according to code then who knows what happens to my insurance claim.

I suppose the wiring from the wall isolator switches to the HVAC and water pump are exposed and therefore in flexible conduit. Funny thing is that the water pump circuit from the isolator switch to the main breaker panel is just romex stapled whereas the HVAC is in conduit up untill into the ceiling. It's both installed by the same electrician.

What i don't understand if why a basement is any bit different then any other room in the house?

I'll probably end up re-doing my work with conduit since i need to change it some anyway. Can i just get the romex and slide it through the conduit to 'protect' it?

I guess I could stop by the town hall and talk to the electrical inspectors.

 

[felixrosbergen]

ok, so i got my hands on a NEC.

Article 334 cover the use of Nonmetallic-Sheather Cable type NM (Romex).

334.10(1) permits use in One and Two family dwellings. Subitem A describes Exposed and Concealed work in normally dry areas.

334.15 covers the 'exposed work'. It says to protect from physical damage where necesarry.

It seems this 'where necesarry' in the last sentence essentially puts it up to the local inspector to determine what he considers necesarry or not.

SOOOO..i called my building department and talked to the inspector...had to give my name and adress first... ohoh...in any case i made it sounds like i was planning this rather than having it already done.

Per his opinion what i did was fine and he just doesnt want Romex floppping around where people go hanging from it or hanging stuff off of it. He said nailing it along the plywood was just fine and considered protected in his opinion.

He did say that for anything like this you need a permit and an inspection. I thought for small additions no permit or inspection was required? Can somebody clarify this? I thought if you're doing work on your own premises you don't need to be a licensed sparky right?

I like to stay within codes and do it according to the book where possible since it's my home and family life safety after all.

I spoke to him about having permanently mounted equipment connected to a UPS and that all got a bit hairy. I'm going to pay him a visit next week and draw a picture to make better clear what i'm looking for. In in all pretty positive.

 

[drozwood90]

ok, so i got my hands on a NEC.

Article 334 cover the use of Nonmetallic-Sheather Cable type NM (Romex).

334.10(1) permits use in One and Two family dwellings. Subitem A describes Exposed and Concealed work in normally dry areas.

334.15 covers the 'exposed work'. It says to protect from physical damage where necesarry.

It seems this 'where necesarry' in the last sentence essentially puts it up to the local inspector to determine what he considers necesarry or not.

SOOOO..i called my building department and talked to the inspector...had to give my name and adress first... ohoh...in any case i made it sounds like i was planning this rather than having it already done.

Per his opinion what i did was fine and he just doesnt want Romex floppping around where people go hanging from it or hanging stuff off of it. He said nailing it along the plywood was just fine and considered protected in his opinion.

He did say that for anything like this you need a permit and an inspection. I thought for small additions no permit or inspection was required? Can somebody clarify this? I thought if you're doing work on your own premises you don't need to be a licensed sparky right?

I like to stay within codes and do it according to the book where possible since it's my home and family life safety after all.

I spoke to him about having permanently mounted equipment connected to a UPS and that all got a bit hairy. I'm going to pay him a visit next week and draw a picture to make better clear what i'm looking for. In in all pretty positive.

Again, I think it depends on your locality. IN Utica, NY, I did not need inspections. I called, the guy basically did not want to come out.

In Buffalo, Not sure. In Rochester, I think they'd probably want to check.

--Dan