End my misery -- Insteon with Elk M1 Gold or Vista 20p

[brettahale]

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the complete package. I'm using Insteon and I want to get a more robust control piece whether it be hardware or software.
 
I have Insteon Dimmers, SwitchLincs, Thermostats.
I have a Radionics D6112 that I'm going to replace and use the existing motion detectors, window breaks, window/door sensors.
I'm installing a Xantech Digi-5 system with keypads. Don't care too much about integration other than maybe security PA.
Eventually I'll add Dampers to the HVAC ducts with temperature and humidity sensors to the rooms / zones.
 
I don't want to be locked in to Insteon all the time. If I end up with 5 dampers or more, I don't want to have those plug-in modules all over the place.
 
The easy choice is the M1, ISY994i w/Elk Module, M1xep combo.
 
However, for half the price, a Vera3 or CastleOS and Vista 20p combo could provide more HA features in the long term with a lower price tag no?
 
Push me off a cliff! Thanks in advance
 

 

[Del91574]

M1.

By the time you expand and price out a similar 20P with half the overall flexibility and features...well the price difference is really in the $100 range.
 
The best out of the 2 would be to get the M1 and then use Vera to offload what the M1 doesn't do well or to loadshed as it is.
 
I don't think you'll see more HA features on the 20P....want to use prox with weigand? Not possible. Want to perform complex actions on arm/disarm or drive other hardware based on I/O...not possible. Want to dump RS232 into the latest and greatest what have you...not possible.
 
The M1 integrates with a lot more hardware via serial or Ethernet or other units...not to mention Ethernet. Look at the connectivity partners on Elk's site.

Don't get me wrong, I think the 20P is a robust and flexible security platform for it's cost and have installed hundreds, but there's more to be had with the M1.

 

[pete_c]

Personally too it depends on how far you want to delve into the whole automation hobby or not and what niches of engineering and programming and security you are most interested in.
 
Here today I still do not know what I like the best.  In the late 1970's I only utilized X10 for controlling my lighting.  In the 1980's I did get an alarm panel which controlled X10 and had primitive TTS.
 
Today play with X10, Insteon, Z-wave and UPB.  I utilize a Leviton HAI OPII panel as my base relating to security.  That said I have many of the Leviton HAI options connected to it.  This since the early 2000's.
 
In the late 1990's I started to play with Homeseer. The unique thing about Homeseer is that it talked or I could make it talk to just about any device.  Today I have around 30 analog to digital connections to it.  What is kind of neat about it today is that:
 
1 - It runs on Ubuntu
2 - uses wintel TTS fonts (I have a collection today)
3 - Touch interface designer in wintel talks to consoles using Linux, Android, Wintel (and CE) and Apple
4 - New feature is to run a plugin on either Linux or Wintel and talk to the mothership whatever OS that happens to be on.
 
The above noted; I am still on the fence as to what is the best and playing with a bunch of it driven by my mostly hobby addiction rather than just plan functions.

 

[gizzmo]

I jumped on insteon very early and was disappointed. I saw a large push toward zwave by many security manufacturers and decided to jump in. While the vista 20 can do some commands the real heavy lifting is best left to vera. This can also leave you a path to zwave from insteon if needed. M1 is a nice panel but overkill for average installs. I only dabble in automation in my own house and do not install for customers any more. I have a V20P, tuxedo and Vera installed.

 

[pete_c]

BTW the Elk and HAI panels both will provide you with a similiar set or base of whatever you want to do.  Basically they the two panels just work and do not need any additional pieces for what they do.
 
It really depends on you and how much you want to do with the technology and how much you want to spend on it.
 
The aforementioned software will provide a base for experimenting with automation if that is your thing and with proper integration can do much more stuff.
 
Here and relating to my sprinkler system automation.  Initially it was just the purchased Rainbird timer with the rain switch connected to it.
 
Later on went to software which basically did the same initially of timing the sprinklers.  A year or two later took the software to a much higher level of functions and features; integrating my weather station, analog devices (water meter, flow sensors, electronic shutoff, et al) and the use of basic calculations for watering way above the basic timing and single analog device shut off.  That is just one thing that you can do relating to automation and it being a hobby and your knowledge base of what you can or cannot do.  Most folks though are happy with just a plan old timer whether that is software or hardware with no real intelligence to it.
 
You can do similiar relating to any sub set of automation today depending on you, how much time you are willing to spend on it using your own knowledge base.  It can be relating to lighting, multimedia automation, hvac automation, power so forth and so on.

 

[Del91574]

I can't say I agree with you Gizzmo....I've installed literally hundreds of the 20P's (and 20SE's and 10SE's) over the years and while they're a nice platform and work......as I mentioned, YMMV.
 
By the time you factor in the price of a Vista, a Vera and the related components...well, how much cheaper is it really? How much does it cost to get a TUX as a Zwave gateway to the Vista and then the related components to get the Vera to listen to the Vista? My biggest selling point for a panel like the M1 is you can put the "dabble" items into it and then if you need to do heavy lifting, install a Vera (with spelling errors and bad GUI and all) to work the the various supported protocol formats that Vera supports. HAI OPII...for that panel, you're at 3X the cost of a M1 because you need to buy all the functionality up front instead of being modular like the M1 (both are similar in capabilities) and the M1 kit, side by side with a similarly equipped 20P (of course the 4286 is discontinued now to boot) is literally within $100....
 
The biggest item for the OP is the M1 gets him compatibility with what he already has and then if he really wants to, he can migrate to another technology or run 2 or more parallel...not to mention, the insteon modules he's talking about for dampers...well, a simple input/output scheme into the M1 is possible or he can interface far more T-stat equipment than what is available for a Zwave platform and in honesty, can drive rules to do some pretty nice things with the dampers (IE: if the AC is on and a door/window in the zone is left open for X amount of time...close that damper...raise the setpoint...etc)
 
If you only want to turn a light on when you disarm or turn a Zwave lock and very basic HVAC (setpoint change, etc) I'd say 20P would work as a gateway and basic platform but it's very easy to paint yourself into a corner.

 

[Digger]

If you already have Insteon then the ELK and ISY combination is something to seriously consider.  Not the cheapest but probably the best overall combination for flexability and support.  As mentioned Homeseer is another option but even more expensive and probably a lot more work.  Homeseer has its advantages but can have its issues as well. 
 
Check out the ISY forum to get your own feel of their support and capabilities. 

 

[whlatimer]

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the complete package. I'm using Insteon and I want to get a more robust control piece whether it be hardware or software.
 
I have Insteon Dimmers, SwitchLincs, Thermostats.
I have a Radionics D6112 that I'm going to replace and use the existing motion detectors, window breaks, window/door sensors.
I'm installing a Xantech Digi-5 system with keypads. Don't care too much about integration other than maybe security PA.
Eventually I'll add Dampers to the HVAC ducts with temperature and humidity sensors to the rooms / zones.
 
I don't want to be locked in to Insteon all the time. If I end up with 5 dampers or more, I don't want to have those plug-in modules all over the place.
 
The easy choice is the M1, ISY994i w/Elk Module, M1xep combo.
 
However, for half the price, a Vera3 or CastleOS and Vista 20p combo could provide more HA features in the long term with a lower price tag no?
 
Push me off a cliff! Thanks in advance

 
Elk M1 Gold with M1XEP and ISY994i PRO with Elk Integration module is serving me very well.  Others will disagree, but I subscribe to the "best of breed" philosophy, let the Elk monitor zones and alert and let the ISY994i sense everything going on.  ISY994i and folks at Universal Devices are first class (check the wiki and forums).
 
My Vista 20p has retired to obsolesence, as has my zWave devices, my X10 and my Hometroller Pro.

 

[whlatimer]

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the complete package. I'm using Insteon and I want to get a more robust control piece whether it be hardware or software.
 
I have Insteon Dimmers, SwitchLincs, Thermostats.
I have a Radionics D6112 that I'm going to replace and use the existing motion detectors, window breaks, window/door sensors.
I'm installing a Xantech Digi-5 system with keypads. Don't care too much about integration other than maybe security PA.
Eventually I'll add Dampers to the HVAC ducts with temperature and humidity sensors to the rooms / zones.
 
I don't want to be locked in to Insteon all the time. If I end up with 5 dampers or more, I don't want to have those plug-in modules all over the place.
 
The easy choice is the M1, ISY994i w/Elk Module, M1xep combo.
 
However, for half the price, a Vera3 or CastleOS and Vista 20p combo could provide more HA features in the long term with a lower price tag no?
 
Push me off a cliff! Thanks in advance

 
Elk M1 Gold with M1XEP and ISY994i PRO with Elk Integration module is serving me very well.  Others will disagree, but I subscribe to the "best of breed" philosophy, let the Elk monitor zones and alert and let the ISY994i sense everything going on.  ISY994i and folks at Universal Devices are first class (check the wiki and forums).
 
My Vista 20p has retired to obsolesence, as has my zWave devices, my X10 and my Hometroller Pro.

 

[brettahale]

Thanks for the great replies and info!
 
@delinstallations - After I started thinking about it, adding hardware seemed to be a good reason to grab an M1. I haven't quantified it but I would believe you when you say the price gap will close quickly when bolting on features.
 
@pete_c - I think the HAI and Homeseer are not in the running now but I was seriously considering Homeseer for a minute. I like the software route but it's got to have some good community support. I've had Girder on a server for quite a while but it was painstaking trying to integrate new things. I was thinking about grabbing some UPB dimmers and trying those on for size but I do like Insteon so I didn't. If I had a nickname, it would be scope creep. I've started so many things, main web applications/projects, and by the time I'm done, I find something else that piques my interest. I have project ADD
 
Long story short, hopefully I can get a nice solid infrastructure in and use that as a playground. However, I'm still waiting (read hoping) that the innovation in HA will take off. It seems to be trying but it's going to have to be fun for the non super technically saavy folks. I think we're starting to see that with all the wireless stuff. Taking the hardware out of the equation will do wonders... but I like to poke holes in my walls!
 
@gizzmo I haven't seen the tuxedo touch before. That seems like a good selling point but it's pricey. Especially with tablet pricing coming down, it should be no time before we're mounting a dedicated app device to the wall. I've heard a lot of people that used Insteon before I jumped in were not very happy. Even today I hear a lot about reliability but it hasn't been my experience. Hopefully that won't come back to haunt me
 
@digger & @whlatimer Thanks for the replies, I'll jump on the forums over there. It seems everyone that uses this set up is, for the most part, happy. Support and flexibility are very important to me so that's good to here.
 
Just to throw something else into the mix, I have a ninjablock set up on a Raspberry PI and have been thinking about grabbing an Arduino to connect all the old security hardware. I just saw this today http://ninjablocks.com/pages/picrust
 
Damn ADD got me again! Probably will go the M1 route for that integration flexibility but maybe the HA could be done on a PI. The NinjaBlock setup is written in JavaScript and I'm pretty proficient. 

 

[gizzmo]

Del, I may not have been clear here. The V20 is not a very good piece of hardware for automation. The tux costs a fortune and is a fancy keypad with zwave control added. Not that is better than other panels but once I had the zwave modules I settled on vera to control them. In fact the only thing I use the tux for is to manually adjust the thermostat twelve feet away because I can read it better. Only installed one M1 and didn't like it because it didn't fit my business well. I have standardized on Honeywell and didn't want to train installers on a panel with that many different programming locations. The M1 is a nice panel just not a good fit for my business.

 

[Madcodger]

Basically agree with Whlatimer and Digger. Elk and ISY serving me well. Jury still out on vew version of Homeseer, depending largely on 3rd parties developing for it.

 

[gatchel]

Elk + Insteon Gives Insteon capabilities that you can't get Insteon alone. It also saves you from ordering a bunch of Insteon input modules where you can get almost double the inputs for the same price by adding an input expander.
 
 
The other thing to remember that Elk and ISY use very little power and do pretty much anything you could ever want. If you chose PC software based solution it will affect your electric bill more than the ELk and ISY.
 
I was looking in to a Vista20P originally but when I saw that it could only handle 16 outputs at that time, the Elk was the only logical choice. At the time, Elk was more DIY friendly and had more of an Elk employee support presence here on CT. Today, no so mush but there is enough users here to provide and help with just about anything you would need. This is minor...

 

[Del91574]

Not an issue...I'm dealing with both platforms when I'm not working with the large projects or spec equipment.....
 
Honeywell is great and universally backwards/forwards compatible for the last 20 years. It works and you can do a decent amount with it, UI is easy and programming is also easy. Downside is you're limited to what is available for I/O and actions that can be done with the panel......the biggest thing I hate with Honeywell is if I want to download the panel, the CIA modem, clunky Compass and either building a dongle for the panel or carrying a 4100SN (but with the EZ8 you need the serial port plug in as a minimum for direct connection).
 
The problem I see with most pros and Elk is they do not consider the EZ8 as a reasonable alternative. Granted, the price point is about the same as a V-128 (it's comparable Honeywell panel) but it'll support being expanded all the way up to almost being equivalent of an M1.
 
Yes, there are quirks with the M1 and also limitations on keypads...but that's not why I support both platforms. There's things I can't do with a Honeywell product (multiple partition in multiple buildings with only a single 4 conductor) or the flexibility of the F-keys and driving other hardware with it or into it. The largest item is being able to accomplish literally almost anything a customer wants to tweak (keyswitch LED's, OHD's, conditional events, the list can go on and on). .
 
For a pro, especially with others in the field, the best way to deal with others programming a panel is to just build their own standard default template in RP and then customize it for that particular installation. It's what many have been doing with the Bosch/Radionics products for years with the 5200 programmer. I think where the M1 platform shines is on takeovers....you have a customer that says my old alarm did X or Y, I want this to do it as well, 95% of the time it's possible.

The M1 platform (both panels) may not be for everyone, but for me and the business I deal with it's another ace in the hat that can get me out of (almost) anything that I can't do with a Honeywell product.

Del, I may not have been clear here. The V20 is not a very good piece of hardware for automation. The tux costs a fortune and is a fancy keypad with zwave control added. Not that is better than other panels but once I had the zwave modules I settled on vera to control them. In fact the only thing I use the tux for is to manually adjust the thermostat twelve feet away because I can read it better. Only installed one M1 and didn't like it because it didn't fit my business well. I have standardized on Honeywell and didn't want to train installers on a panel with that many different programming locations. The M1 is a nice panel just not a good fit for my business.

 

[gizzmo]

I also don't do automation other than my own home and even then its minimal. So I am hardly an expert. I have a friend that does Control4 and hates security, I hate automation and like security/fire. We work well together.