What is the programming purpose of the Entry/Exit2 delays? There doesn't seem to be any programming that recognizes Exit1 versus Exit2 transitions. The "Whenever Exit Delay..." rule goes by exit1 settings, so it doesn't seem exit2 matters as far as rules go. Am I interpreting this right?
Exit1 and Exit2
- Thread starter crash123
- Start date
I don't have ElkRP handy at the moment, so I can't comment on the inability to access Exit2 from programming. However, the reason for the two is so you can define different times for different locations. For example, the main door probably only needs 30 seconds (unlock door, open door, pre-alarm count starts, walk to keypad and enter code = 30 seconds), while a garage entry needs more (car door starts to open, pre-alarm count starts, wait for door to open fully, pull car in, turn off ignition, exit car, walk to keypad and enter code = 2 minutes). Ditto for the entry times. IIRC, you set the Exit1 and Exit2 times inside the "area" portion of Elk RP.
When I wrecked my Explorer and switched to a F-150 pickup, I had to increase the entry time on the garage, as the larger vehicle took a little more care and time to get into the garage.
When I wrecked my Explorer and switched to a F-150 pickup, I had to increase the entry time on the garage, as the larger vehicle took a little more care and time to get into the garage.
Yes, I understand that part of it. I even have mine set up that way (garage on enter/exit2, which is longer than enter/exit1). But with no apparent way to take distinguishing actions based on the exit 1/2 differences via rules, I'm having trouble getting the system to respond the way I'd like.
For example, if exit2 expires and the garage overhead door contact is still violated, that would imply I accidently left the garage door open as I drove away. I want to hold off on the sirens going off, since that would draw attention to the fact that no one is home and the garage is open. That's the way it is set up now and it's not good.
Instead I'd like to seggregate the garage sensors (I have a contact and a motion detector in the garage, each on dedicated zones) if they are tripped during a normal exit arming sequence of exit1 and exit2 expiring, and just arm-away the rest of the house (without sirens since there is no burglary in progress in this case).
So the rule would be something like, if there is an exit2 error but not an exit1 error, execute the "Oops, garage door left open" task (which would disable the 2 garage zones, call my cell to notify with voice msg of the problem, and arm the rest of the system normally).
Something like that anyway.
The enter 1/2 scenarios are different and I'll have to think about them separately. But any thoughts on how to take the actions that distinguish exit 1 and 2 under the scenario described would be appreciated. I'm stumped.
Might look at making the garage doors a vent zone.
This should provide what you are after as if they are open system will still arm without alarming, if at anytime afterwards they close the system will monitor them.
With a camera to see nothing is in the way you could then remotely lower the door and continue on your business,
This should provide what you are after as if they are open system will still arm without alarming, if at anytime afterwards they close the system will monitor them.
With a camera to see nothing is in the way you could then remotely lower the door and continue on your business,
Interesting idea, thanks Collin. It sounds sort of like a force-arm scenario, but without the associated arming issues. Is that right?
I also looked at what's called a common area, but I think that doesn't give me the correct operation since it would hold off arming the main house zones.
I don't recall a vent zone as an Elk zone type. Do you create the zone type manually with some combination of rules and using maybe the auxiliary-24hr zone type?
I also have a dual-tech motion detector in the garage, which would have to function similarly. While I guess I could put the motion and contact on the same zone, I'd rather keep them separate because of the way the garage is used.
WayneW
Senior Member
Are you sure about the siren going off? I was under the impression that a zone that was violated when the exit timer expired would simply re-arm that zone when it became secure/closed. I cannot say for certain, but I am pretty sure I have had an exterior door open when the exit timer expired and no siren went off. But, I don't recall using any rules based on exit1/ext2 in my config either.
wuench
Senior Member
Yeah. You just set it up as Force Armable, if the door is still open then the alarm won't go off. It will be bypassed automatically until the door is closed. I also have a rule that automatically closes the door if open and the exit timer expires.
For your motion maybe you can create a rule to bypass the motion when the door is open. But there is probably a way to handle that without resorting to rules as well. You may want it as a Burglar Interior Follower and you'll want it Force Armable as well. I think I also saw a thread somewhere about using an output to physically bypass the motion when the garage door is opened as well by interrupting the circuit.
For your motion maybe you can create a rule to bypass the motion when the door is open. But there is probably a way to handle that without resorting to rules as well. You may want it as a Burglar Interior Follower and you'll want it Force Armable as well. I think I also saw a thread somewhere about using an output to physically bypass the motion when the garage door is opened as well by interrupting the circuit.
Wayne: I think there's a global that controls what you're talking about. Gives you one re-entry and re-start of the exit timer. But I'll look into it. Thanks.
Wuench: Force arming is close, but not quite right for what I want to do. I'm trying to think of a way to emulate the parts of force-arming I want, and also to add the other actions I want.
For my situation I don't want to bypass the garage motion if the door is open and the system not armed (I have a voice prompt that says "garage motion" in case someone comes into the open garage while I'm home. I think I saw the same thread you mentioned, and am considering a wireless-controlled relay to trick the motion detector circuit when entering. I'm going to concentrate on just getting the exit scenario to work first though.
A couple rules questions:
"Whenever security/alarms is-armed away"
Does this transition get detected the instant I push 1-button arm from the keypad, or is it detected after exit1, or exit2, expire?
Can I (using a "THEN" rule) bypass a zone during the armed exit delay period, or can you only bypass a zone when the system is in the fully disarmed state? This is part of how I plan to emulate Force Armed (i.e. detect the garage overhead door is still open say 100 seconds after exit1 starts (which would mean I forgot to close it) but also set my "official" exit2 delay to say 120 seconds, to give the system time to bypass that zone before exit2 expires, then to call me on my cell phone.
I'm open to other suggestions too.
thanks.
Wuench: Force arming is close, but not quite right for what I want to do. I'm trying to think of a way to emulate the parts of force-arming I want, and also to add the other actions I want.
For my situation I don't want to bypass the garage motion if the door is open and the system not armed (I have a voice prompt that says "garage motion" in case someone comes into the open garage while I'm home. I think I saw the same thread you mentioned, and am considering a wireless-controlled relay to trick the motion detector circuit when entering. I'm going to concentrate on just getting the exit scenario to work first though.
A couple rules questions:
"Whenever security/alarms is-armed away"
Does this transition get detected the instant I push 1-button arm from the keypad, or is it detected after exit1, or exit2, expire?
Can I (using a "THEN" rule) bypass a zone during the armed exit delay period, or can you only bypass a zone when the system is in the fully disarmed state? This is part of how I plan to emulate Force Armed (i.e. detect the garage overhead door is still open say 100 seconds after exit1 starts (which would mean I forgot to close it) but also set my "official" exit2 delay to say 120 seconds, to give the system time to bypass that zone before exit2 expires, then to call me on my cell phone.
I'm open to other suggestions too.
thanks.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
I haven't finished up the wiring of my garage yet, but based on everything I read about about how the timers work, I know I have no intention using the garage doors as burglar zones - I'll use them as non-alarm zones and do everything using rules. The one catch to that is there's no way to trigger the alarm via code - so I'll end up burning an output and an input zone most likely to give myself a way to trigger the alarm (basically hook an output to an input zone set as burglar/instant NO - when you turn the output on, it closes the zone triggering the alarm)...
I like the idea of having total control over the zone - be able to chirp a buzzer, something like that as a warning, and be able to use whatever amount of time that I want. In my case, when the big garage doors are open, I'll give myself something like 5 minutes - during the last minute, chirp a piezo buzzer (during the last 30 seconds, turn it on constant) in the garage as a warning - and probably use the spare channel on our keychain garage door openers to restart the timer (say a neighbor catches us on the way in to talk before we disarm the system). Of course, if the man door or window is opened, it's still instant trigger.
Just my thoughts... I have no real intention of involving a motion detector, but I'm sure you could figure out a good way to incorporate that too if desired.
I like the idea of having total control over the zone - be able to chirp a buzzer, something like that as a warning, and be able to use whatever amount of time that I want. In my case, when the big garage doors are open, I'll give myself something like 5 minutes - during the last minute, chirp a piezo buzzer (during the last 30 seconds, turn it on constant) in the garage as a warning - and probably use the spare channel on our keychain garage door openers to restart the timer (say a neighbor catches us on the way in to talk before we disarm the system). Of course, if the man door or window is opened, it's still instant trigger.
Just my thoughts... I have no real intention of involving a motion detector, but I'm sure you could figure out a good way to incorporate that too if desired.
Lagerhead
Active Member
Right, this is an unfortunate shortcoming of the M1. It should be a basic feature to trigger a burglar alarm entirely in software. But I too am "wasting" an input and a relay output for the same purpose.
This as part of my "intrusion button" sequence -- first press is outside lights on, second press is inside lights on, and third press is activate burglar alarm (close the relay).
Does the output have to be a relay? I was thinking of just wiring an input and an output together. Will this work, or might the magic smoke make a dazzling escape?
Chris D.
Lagerhead
Active Member
A relay is the conservative approach. To violate the zone you want to pull it to ground and sink the current, so a relay is appropriate. M1 outputs, on the other hand, are described as "+12V switched positive voltage outputs rated at 50mA max" and are meant as current sources. Though a direct output might work, I would use a transistor as a switch in this case.
(Recap) Here's a description of what I wanted it to do and what rules I used to get it to work:
Some initial info on settings:
Zone 7 is the garage overhead door contact
Zone 10 is the garage motion (a Honeywell DT7435)
Both zones are type "burglar entry/exit2," set to be bypassable
Delays:
Exit1=60 sec (not really important here; just to show exit2 is longer)
Exit2=150 sec
The intent is to have the M1G call my cell with a warning if I forget to close the garage when I drive away,
but not to set off the sirens since that would make obvious that no one was home and the garage was wide
open. I also wanted to have the rest of the system (minus the garage) armed-away as normal (with sirens if an
interior zone were to be violated later).
WHENEVER Area1 exit delay starts
THEN set counter(GarageLeftOpen) to 0
THEN turn output201 on for 2 mins, 10 secs
THEN turn output202 on for 3 mins
/*
The GarageLeftOpen flag comes into play later. The dummy output201 is a 130s counter, 20s shorter than the
actual exit2 delay to allow time for automatically bypassing the garage zones before the exit2 delay expires.
In effect, the 130s is my acutal, usable exit2 delay. The only danger here is I have to always remember this
hardcoded 130s has to be less than the setting for exit2 delay by at least a few seconds. The dummy output202
was added as an afterthought. It is a 180s counter (slightly longer than the exit2 delay), which I use to
detect that the exit times both expired OK and the full system armed OK.
*/
WHENEVER output201 state is turned off
AND Garage OHD Door (zone7) is not secure
THEN bypass Garage OHD Door (Zone7)
THEN bypass GaragePIR (Zone10)
THEN set counter(GarageLeftOpen) to 7
/*
Z7 is the garage overhead door contact. If it's still not secure after 130s, it was accidently left open
(your mileage may vary on the actual time to use). But the rest of the system is still 20 seconds from being
armed (i.e. exit2 delay is 150 sec) so I bypass both the garage zones before that happens to avoid sirens.
The rest of the house arms as normal.
It would be better if z10 could be changed to a type 13 aux zone instead of bypassing it (which would still
allow log events), but I don't think there's a way to do that. I may later add a strobe in the garage that
starts blinking at 100s after exit delay starts so I know I have to get out quick, but I think 130s should be
plenty.
*/
WHENEVER counter(GarageLeftOpen) becomes 7
THEN dial a cell phone with a "garage left open" voice msg and/or send emails.
/*
I could probably skip the flag and dial/email within the previous WHENEVER block, but I'd rather have it
separated this way.
*/
WHENEVER output202 state is turned off
AND counter(GarageLeftOpen) is not equal to 7
AND Area1 is armed away
THEN dial cell with message that all exit timers expired without violation and the system armed OK.
------
That's it for the exit scenario.
If for some reason I don't get the call or email, at least the rest of the house is secure.
If a nice neighbor sees my open garage and closes it for me, the garage won't be armed, but at least it's
closed, and that won't set off an alarm since the garage zones are bypassed.
If I do get the call, I drive home, go inside and disarm/rearm the system (to clear/reset the bypassed zones)
and hopefully remember to close the garage door this time ;o).
Afterthought: adding the output202 counter routine means I'll either get a call that I left the garage door
open, or a call that everything armed OK. It's just a "nice to confirm" everything armed OK.
Maybe in the future I'll get the system set up to automatically close the garage, but this is my plan for
now. Seems to work fine. Hopefully this may be useful to others, or give you some ideas for your situation.
Some initial info on settings:
Zone 7 is the garage overhead door contact
Zone 10 is the garage motion (a Honeywell DT7435)
Both zones are type "burglar entry/exit2," set to be bypassable
Delays:
Exit1=60 sec (not really important here; just to show exit2 is longer)
Exit2=150 sec
The intent is to have the M1G call my cell with a warning if I forget to close the garage when I drive away,
but not to set off the sirens since that would make obvious that no one was home and the garage was wide
open. I also wanted to have the rest of the system (minus the garage) armed-away as normal (with sirens if an
interior zone were to be violated later).
WHENEVER Area1 exit delay starts
THEN set counter(GarageLeftOpen) to 0
THEN turn output201 on for 2 mins, 10 secs
THEN turn output202 on for 3 mins
/*
The GarageLeftOpen flag comes into play later. The dummy output201 is a 130s counter, 20s shorter than the
actual exit2 delay to allow time for automatically bypassing the garage zones before the exit2 delay expires.
In effect, the 130s is my acutal, usable exit2 delay. The only danger here is I have to always remember this
hardcoded 130s has to be less than the setting for exit2 delay by at least a few seconds. The dummy output202
was added as an afterthought. It is a 180s counter (slightly longer than the exit2 delay), which I use to
detect that the exit times both expired OK and the full system armed OK.
*/
WHENEVER output201 state is turned off
AND Garage OHD Door (zone7) is not secure
THEN bypass Garage OHD Door (Zone7)
THEN bypass GaragePIR (Zone10)
THEN set counter(GarageLeftOpen) to 7
/*
Z7 is the garage overhead door contact. If it's still not secure after 130s, it was accidently left open
(your mileage may vary on the actual time to use). But the rest of the system is still 20 seconds from being
armed (i.e. exit2 delay is 150 sec) so I bypass both the garage zones before that happens to avoid sirens.
The rest of the house arms as normal.
It would be better if z10 could be changed to a type 13 aux zone instead of bypassing it (which would still
allow log events), but I don't think there's a way to do that. I may later add a strobe in the garage that
starts blinking at 100s after exit delay starts so I know I have to get out quick, but I think 130s should be
plenty.
*/
WHENEVER counter(GarageLeftOpen) becomes 7
THEN dial a cell phone with a "garage left open" voice msg and/or send emails.
/*
I could probably skip the flag and dial/email within the previous WHENEVER block, but I'd rather have it
separated this way.
*/
WHENEVER output202 state is turned off
AND counter(GarageLeftOpen) is not equal to 7
AND Area1 is armed away
THEN dial cell with message that all exit timers expired without violation and the system armed OK.
------
That's it for the exit scenario.
If for some reason I don't get the call or email, at least the rest of the house is secure.
If a nice neighbor sees my open garage and closes it for me, the garage won't be armed, but at least it's
closed, and that won't set off an alarm since the garage zones are bypassed.
If I do get the call, I drive home, go inside and disarm/rearm the system (to clear/reset the bypassed zones)
and hopefully remember to close the garage door this time ;o).
Afterthought: adding the output202 counter routine means I'll either get a call that I left the garage door
open, or a call that everything armed OK. It's just a "nice to confirm" everything armed OK.
Maybe in the future I'll get the system set up to automatically close the garage, but this is my plan for
now. Seems to work fine. Hopefully this may be useful to others, or give you some ideas for your situation.
davefred99
Member
Couldn't you just set zone 7 To force armed so it will automatically bypass if left open and set a rule to bypass the motion (zone 10 ) whenever 7 is bypassed. Then call your cellphone Whenever zone 7 and 10 are in bypass mode and the alarm is armed ?
re: Couldn't you just set zone 7 To force armed so it will automatically bypass if left open and set a rule to bypass the motion (zone 10 ) whenever 7 is bypassed. Then call your cellphone Whenever zone 7 and 10 are in bypass mode and the alarm is armed ?
It wouldn't work quite the same I don't think. Force arming requires you enter the full arming code twice (I want 1-button arming), and if a zone is force-armed, it IS bypassed until it goes "secure" no matter what, so zone 10 would also bypass (by a rule you'd set) every time the door was left open. Since force arm bypasses no matter what, there is no time constraint to monitor (in order to trigger the cell phone call). I think delay timers would still be needed too, because you'd still need a way to hold off on judging if the door was left open unitl exit2 expired. There's no direct way to get exit2 events.
The way I'm doing it has some similarities to force arm, but not quite the same under all scenarios.
Even better would be a check-box in the zone definition dialog (maybe right below the "bypassable" checkbox) that allows a burglar zone to be converted (via RP "Then" rule, just like w/ bypassable) to an aux-24 hr zone (then back to its normal zone type when disarmed). That way, the zone is still active and creates events (e.g. write time of violations of motion to log and/or call cell phone), it just doens't create alarm events.
Spanky, if you're looking in, would a new zone attribute check box like this be possible?
It wouldn't work quite the same I don't think. Force arming requires you enter the full arming code twice (I want 1-button arming), and if a zone is force-armed, it IS bypassed until it goes "secure" no matter what, so zone 10 would also bypass (by a rule you'd set) every time the door was left open. Since force arm bypasses no matter what, there is no time constraint to monitor (in order to trigger the cell phone call). I think delay timers would still be needed too, because you'd still need a way to hold off on judging if the door was left open unitl exit2 expired. There's no direct way to get exit2 events.
The way I'm doing it has some similarities to force arm, but not quite the same under all scenarios.
Even better would be a check-box in the zone definition dialog (maybe right below the "bypassable" checkbox) that allows a burglar zone to be converted (via RP "Then" rule, just like w/ bypassable) to an aux-24 hr zone (then back to its normal zone type when disarmed). That way, the zone is still active and creates events (e.g. write time of violations of motion to log and/or call cell phone), it just doens't create alarm events.
Spanky, if you're looking in, would a new zone attribute check box like this be possible?
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