Getting started ELK and HAI

[rsw686]

Overall I'm happy with the system. Unfortunately the home automation / security industry is slow moving. Both HAI and Elk have had the same panel out for at 5+ years and it shows. If either included a few features the other had the choice would have been easy.

The Omnistat2 Zigbee thermostats and HAI HLC switches were easy to configure and just work. A couple of times the status for a light has been wrong, but I'm chalking it up to a UPB collision. This hasn't happened recently as I've adjusted to the system. The switch paddles could use some improvement. With a regular toggle or rocker switch it is easy to press as you are walking by. With the HAI switches you need to press it towards the center. I've had a couple of times where I hit the corner and the rocker didn't press the micro switch underneath.

If Lutron was DIY friendly I would have seriously considered RadioRA2 switches. From what I've read the paddles are identical to the non automated Lutron dimmers sold at Home Depot. I've had a few of these before and the paddle has a solid feeling. Additionally the screw terminals make for an easier install then cramming wire leads and 4 wire nuts per switch in a box.

Setup wise the PC Access software is easy to use. I do wish PC Access would track and only update changes to the controller. If you change a setting, zone name, line of code, etc it has to clear the entire section (setup, programs, names, voices, extended setup) and write all values. Right now I have around 100 program lines and the execution of the lines is fast. I have logic so when arming if the door is opened the garage door opener is activated. It happens almost instantly. It takes a bit longer to turn on a light when triggered by a door, but the delay is on sending the UPB command.

The biggest compliant I have for HAI is the security side feels like an afterthought. I've been looking at adding wireless and programming has to be done from the wireless receiver. Even my previous Ademco Vista 15 panel could enroll devices from any keypad. Also missing is clean me support for 2 wire smokes and a walk through test mode to verify all zones work.

 

[EDP]

As has been talked about ad nauseam by others over the years...I'm still debating between the ELK and HAI Omnipro II. It does seem that both solutions are slow to update as you've mentioned. It's interesting though that you say "the security side feels like an afterthought" as that was a primary reason for me leaning towards HAI.

I'm also struggling with whether to go with UPB, RadioRA2 or Zigbee (utilizing Centralite Azela for lighting). There are so many options and opinions out there that it becomes a paralysis by analysis problem. Once you add in some of the new technology to the mix (like the Phillips Hue), the problem becomes that much worse.

 

[rsw686]

I spent weeks trying to decide. There is no right choice as they all have pros/cons. I ended up downloading the install manuals and reading through them to understand how each system worked.

I should have said HAI is lacking on the security features. In their defense Elk is lacking on automation. If you look at the Elk M1 board it was designed for security. The only supported lighting technology on-board is X10. You need to purchase serial modules to connect to other technologies. You configure the light as serial and the serial interface maps the UPB device and links to X10 ids. With HAI for each block of 16 lights you select the lighting technology and the UPB devices and links are not mapped. With HLC mode you are also grouping lights into rooms, which makes it easy to turn an entire room on or off.

The Elk does excel on the security side. Wireless is programmed from the keypads. Audible entry and exit delay are both configurable per keypad. Night instant and night delay can be enabled / disabled and the stay button will cycle through the modes. There are zone types for both GAS and CO. There is a zone type for burglar interior night delay, which would be ideal for the basement motion detector. Program arming the system lets you set the arming delay or arm instantly and will automatically bypass zones and restore them as they become secure. Fire verification mode and zone resistors are selectable per zone and not all or nothing.

With HAI the night button will only arm night instant and only the audible exit is configurable. I have two keypads one at the top of the stairs by a door and one at the bottom by a door. When entering the house the audible entry was extremely annoying as the keypads were not in sync. I had to write rules to disable the keypad beeper and then enable after disarmed to replicate the audible entry setting that should be there. Program arming always waits the exit delay so if you switch modes there a period of time where a zone can be violated with no alarm. I ended up not arming the basement motion at night as if I accidentally walked downstairs the siren goes off immediately. I could work around this by setting it as entry / exit, but when away I want an instant alarm. I was looking at adding both a GAS detector and CO detectors however there is no way to tell the difference when the siren goes off.

Back to the automation side the HAI keypads are fully integrated. I can easily control rooms of lights, individual lights, thermostats, etc. From reading the Elk manual you can only view not change thermostats from their keypads. I also read on the Elk when armed most of the automation functions are locked out from the keypad. I have the Haiku iPhone / iPad app, which works great. In PC Access under extended setup you can create rooms from various items, which even includes IP cameras. Haiku will download these settings and clicking on a room lets you control any associated device.

The HAI Omnistat2 Zigbee thermostats are one of the reasons I went with HAI. I didn't have to pull wires to both HVAC thermostats. The Zigbee interface has been very reliable. I haven't had any issues with settings not changing on the thermostat when changing them on the controller. I've read some threads with people having to create various program rules to verify the temp was set with Elk.

However both HAI and Elk you would use all the user settings to allow easy customization of heat / cool temps. HAI tried to fix this with the Omnistat2 occupancy mode. For day, night, away and vacation you enter temps into the thermostat. The downside is it will only change occupancy mode when the security state is changed. This means I either need to program arm / disarm or hard code the temps into the rules, which is what I wanted to avoid. Plus I still need to walk to the thermostat to change the programmed occupancy temps. These thermostats should really be IP based with a web interface and more full featured API.

Speaking of IPs the HAI can only receive connections. You only program in an IP address no default gateway or DNS. There is no way for it to originate a connection. I had to build a C# program using their SDK for time sync and to send email and prowl alerts. Elk does have an ethernet module which will time sync and send emails, but you are limited to 16 hard coded messages. It will not substitute a zone name, etc.

Coming from the IT industry I was hoping for a more full featured system for the $3k invested. My other hobby is saltwater fish and the Neptune Systems controller is more advanced than either the Elk or HAI. However it isn't a UL listed security product. I'm hoping Elk or HAI is working on a new controller that will be released in the next few years. HAI does seem to be releasing more products recently. With Leviton acquiring HAI I'm hoping for some new developments. I know Elk just released the Navigator touch screen. I don't like the small size or the fact you can only mount it to a horizontal new construction gang box. My existing keypads, the HAI, and Elk keypads normally mount to a vertical gang box. This is not a simple fix as it has to be a new construction box or the sides of the box will show.

 

[rsw686]

I'm also struggling with whether to go with UPB, RadioRA2 or Zigbee (utilizing Centralite Azela for lighting). There are so many options and opinions out there that it becomes a paralysis by analysis problem. Once you add in some of the new technology to the mix (like the Phillips Hue), the problem becomes that much worse.

The CentraLite Azela lighting system looks promising and is Zigbee HA. I haven't seen documentation on how well the integration is with HAI OmniPro. I read good things about the CentraLite JetStream (Zigbee) so their new product line should be good. I wonder how you customize the keypad functions as I don't see software on the CentraLite site like you do for their JetStream line.

 

[picta]

EDP, do not feel intimidated by the choices, each technology has its pros and cons and you can find the one that is best for you by evaluating what features are most important to you. The best way is to get at least a couple of actual devices from each technology you may consider and see them in your application. It will save you dollars in a long run. If you have CFL or LED loads that you want to dim, I would verify that Azelia dimmers can do that. Their JetStream dimmers could not. UPB switches are a good solution for large installs, but you may not like the look and there is no fan control modules. Radio RA has nice looking switches, but the price tag is double and they are difficult to get. If you want integration with HA controller like HAI or Elk, then Phillips Hue is not going to be an option for now.

 

[EDP]

Thanks rsw686 and picta for the great information. Picta, you bring up a point I hadn't even considered - dimming CFL or LED loads. I checked it out and Azela will NOT dim either one.....just when I thought I'd made up my mind Does anyone know if that is a limitation of the Zigbee protocol or just a hardwire issue?

 

[picta]

That is a limitation of the switch hardware.

 

[rsw686]

Thanks rsw686 and picta for the great information. Picta, you bring up a point I hadn't even considered - dimming CFL or LED loads. I checked it out and Azela will NOT dim either one.....just when I thought I'd made up my mind Does anyone know if that is a limitation of the Zigbee protocol or just a hardwire issue?

I have 8 of the HAI CFL/LED dimmers. They work great on dimmable CFLs and have a setting in UPStart to set the minimum dim level. With regular bulbs and Philips LED bulbs when dimming to 90% they drop quickly to 3/4 their brightness. I haven't tried the HAI regular dimmers to see how well they work with CFLs and LEDs. The good thing about either of these is you can enable/disable dimming in UPStart. I have done this on a 2 or 3 where I have non dimmable CFLs installed.

 

[picta]

And if you are still contemplating the hard-wired solution, Elegance relays provide precision dimming with programmable ramp rate on all kinds of loads, or you can configure them as non-dimming switches.

 

[EDP]

I'd prefer to go with Elegance, but I'm afraid it's going to add too much cost to our electrical. It seems every change we make with the builder for electrical costs us a small fortune.

On another note -- I contacted Centralite support about dimming CFL and LED's and got this reponse:

[background=rgb(211, 231, 242)]The dimmers that are available with the Azela line already will dim LED and CFL bulbs. The LEDs that will work best will need to be forward phase leading edge and have a magnetic low voltage transformer. There are several manufacturers out there that offer this style. There are also a lot of them that offer an electronic low voltage transformer. Some of those work but the dimming capabilities vary.[/background]

I then asked this:
Thanks Thomas. That's great news! I'm curious though as to why the spec sheet for the dimmer says it only works with incandescent and halogen bulbs?

And got this response:
[background=rgb(211, 231, 242)]That's a good question. I'll do some looking and get back to you.[/background]

 

[Neurorad]

I spent weeks trying to decide. There is no right choice as they all have pros/cons. I ended up downloading the install manuals and reading through them to understand how each system worked.

......................

Coming from the IT industry I was hoping for a more full featured system for the $3k invested. My other hobby is saltwater fish and the Neptune Systems controller is more advanced than either the Elk or HAI. However it isn't a UL listed security product. I'm hoping Elk or HAI is working on a new controller that will be released in the next few years. HAI does seem to be releasing more products recently. With Leviton acquiring HAI I'm hoping for some new developments. I know Elk just released the Navigator touch screen. I don't like the small size or the fact you can only mount it to a horizontal new construction gang box. My existing keypads, the HAI, and Elk keypads normally mount to a vertical gang box. This is not a simple fix as it has to be a new construction box or the sides of the box will show.

Thanks for that write-up. Much appreciated.

 

[EDP]

Here is the final word on the use of CFLs and LEDs with the Azela system. Thanks to Thomas at Centralite for his responsiveness.

[background=rgb(211, 231, 242)]The reason that we don't put that on the documentation is because we are not compatible with 100% of the LEDs and the CFL bulbs. The ones that we do work with need to be like the ones that I mentioned in my previous response. Also, regarding the CFLs, they need to be dimmable.[/background]

[background=rgb(211, 231, 242)]I hope that this helps.[/background]