HA Rules - How do you handle manual overrides?

[123]

I was thinking about a Force-Sensitive Resistor for placement under the bed's feet. However, I haven't found anything that is designed to handle more than 125 lbs of force. I have a king-size, cherry-wood, sleigh bed and, even when empty, I'm positive there's waaay more than 125 lbs of pressure under each foot. Just for fun, I'll try to measure it with a bathroom scale.

 

[ano]

I was thinking about a Force-Sensitive Resistor for placement under the bed's feet. However, I haven't found anything that is designed to handle more than 125 lbs of force. I have a king-size, cherry-wood, sleigh bed and, even when empty, I'm positive there's waaay more than 125 lbs of pressure under each foot. Just for fun, I'll try to measure it with a bathroom scale.

Maybe if you try all four legs and have a way to sum up the total. I tried actual stress sensors like they use in scales but the problem with only measuring one leg was if the person was on the other side of the bed, it wouldn't register. And for me, they tended to drift with temp changes.

 

[DotNetDog]

Well, now I'm thinking the pressure pads may be worth a try. I starting thinking of another [related] scenario.

In the master bedroom I like to sleep with a ceiling fan running (on low). I wake up early, even on the weekends. My wife, however, likes to sleep in late on the weekends.

I would like to have rules that would turn on the ceiling fan whenever someone walks into a room. OK, that one is easy. However, the system should turn off the ceiling fan when the room is empty.

I can't think of a good way to handle this merely through rules. Unless, of course, I just make assumptions as to how late my wife will sleep.

The pressure pad idea would let me know if someone is still in bed. The rule would only turn off the ceiling fan when the bed is empty.

I might have to purchase one of the pressure pads and test it out. Would it work under the mattress pad (on top of the mattress)? Our mattress is a pillow-top so I don't think the pressure pads would work well between the mattress and box spring.

 

[jaymartin]

OK, please bear with me, folks. I'm still struggling to understand how to handle manual overrides. The nap scenario is just one use case. So I decided to go back to the drawing board on my original question.

Let's say that you have a room with an occupancy sensor that turns the lights on when you enter the room. Now, you enter the room and the lights turn on (good so far). You manually turn off the lights. Then, as you move about the room the occupancy sensor would detect you and turn the lights on.

So to handle this, would you set some kind time-based flag to know that the HA software should not turn on lights if they were turned on within X minutes?

Now, let's apply this to the nap scenario... You walk into your bedroom and the lights turn on...you manually turn them off so that you can take a nap. However, by time you reach the bed the occupancy sensor has seen you so the lights turn on. (I am picturing an Abbott and Costello skit here)

So we would need to tell the HA software to ignore any motion for some period of time. Right?

Having the HA system ignore motion for some period of time is one way, but then you're stuck with whatever predetermined amount of time before it starts working again. If you don't manually signaling, then the button approach is better - press a button to put the room into nap mode, which means the motion sensor will be ignored. Press another button (or toggle button or something) and it turns nap mode off - the HA system will now begin reacting to motion.

 

[ano]

Well, now I'm thinking the pressure pads may be worth a try. I starting thinking of another [related] scenario.

In the master bedroom I like to sleep with a ceiling fan running (on low). I wake up early, even on the weekends. My wife, however, likes to sleep in late on the weekends.

I would like to have rules that would turn on the ceiling fan whenever someone walks into a room. OK, that one is easy. However, the system should turn off the ceiling fan when the room is empty.

I can't think of a good way to handle this merely through rules. Unless, of course, I just make assumptions as to how late my wife will sleep.

The pressure pad idea would let me know if someone is still in bed. The rule would only turn off the ceiling fan when the bed is empty.

I might have to purchase one of the pressure pads and test it out. Would it work under the mattress pad (on top of the mattress)? Our mattress is a pillow-top so I don't think the pressure pads would work well between the mattress and box spring.

My wife likes the ceiling fan on as well when she is in bed, and in summer we have a standing fan as well. I use the bed sensor input as well as the room temp. to control it. The ceiling fan comes on at one temp. and the standing fan at another. Still sometimes we want to override that, so we have buttons next to the bed. When you turn a fan on or off with the button, it sets an override timer for 90 minutes, then goes back to normal. Its worked good for use. Also when we get out of bed, it activates the hot water recirculate pump we have and turns on the room lights and shuts of "sleep" sounds that we have. When going to bed, we have some laser ceiling stars that light for 30 minutes.

 

[drozwood90]

Pressure pads seem like they should work, but if you see what's inside them its foam, with some circles cut out and two conductive sheets on both side. To trigger them you must press down hard vertically so the two conductive sheets contact each other. But this under a bed leg, and it would always be triggered. Even with shims, adjustments, its hard to get it exactly right. I never could.

Put the pressure pad between mattress and box spring, and it will only trigger when getting into or out of bed, but not when your on the bed. The goal of a mattress is to spread out your weight across its surface. This is the opposite of what the pad takes to trigger, a heavy weight over a small area. I've tried pads on top of the bed, pads put on boards, even pads between two pieces of plywood between mattresses. It would never work accurately for one or two people.

hence the dots of glue...to make pressure points...

 

[ano]

Pressure pads seem like they should work, but if you see what's inside them its foam, with some circles cut out and two conductive sheets on both side. To trigger them you must press down hard vertically so the two conductive sheets contact each other. But this under a bed leg, and it would always be triggered. Even with shims, adjustments, its hard to get it exactly right. I never could.

Put the pressure pad between mattress and box spring, and it will only trigger when getting into or out of bed, but not when your on the bed. The goal of a mattress is to spread out your weight across its surface. This is the opposite of what the pad takes to trigger, a heavy weight over a small area. I've tried pads on top of the bed, pads put on boards, even pads between two pieces of plywood between mattresses. It would never work accurately for one or two people.

hence the dots of glue...to make pressure points...

I wish you luck. Let us know how it works.

 

[123]

FWIW, I made the following two measurements by placing a bathroom scale under:

• the right front bed leg: measured 120 lbs.
• the right rear bed leg: measured 140 lbs.

The most meaningful readings were measured when the scale was under the front leg. If I sat on the edge of the bed (midway between front and rear legs) the measurement increased by about 40 lbs and less when I was lying down. That's significant because it can be used to determine if the person is sitting (on the edge) or resting. Interestingly, there was less of a difference in the two readings when measured at the rear of the bed. Sitting directly over the bed leg will, naturally, indicate the greatest incremental increase.

The trick is to find a force sensor able to operate in the range of 125 lbs (bed only) to over 500 lbs (two large adults sitting directly over the bed leg). It would also need to have some sort of protective "hard-stop" that would prevent it from being crushed (i.e. lift and accidentally drop the bed leg). It also needs to be slim. One sensor under each front leg would be sufficient to detect occupancy on either side of the bed.

No clue if such a device exists ...

 

[Monk]

The trick is to find a force sensor able to operate in the range of 125 lbs (bed only) to over 500 lbs (two large adults sitting directly over the bed leg). It would also need to have some sort of protective "hard-stop" that would prevent it from being crushed (i.e. lift and accidentally drop the bed leg). It also needs to be slim. One sensor under each front leg would be sufficient to detect occupancy on either side of the bed.

No clue if such a device exists ...

These look cool

http://www.loadstarsensors.com/capacitive-load-cells.html

 

[mthurs27]

My solution is a bit hard-core. I count bodies in and out of rooms using two motion sensors angled slightly apart. Outer-then-inner adds to the room count, and the opposite of that decrements the count. When >0, light turns on. When 0, light turns off.

What motion sensors are you using in this setup? This is a nice way for dealing with occupancy!

Thanks,

Michael

 

[TonyNo]

Just the X10 DS10A's.

 

[signal15]

You guys are way overthinking the problem of determining whether or not someone is in the bed. Use a pulsor sensor:

http://www.iautomate.com/pulsor.html

They attach to the bottom of a roof, floor joist, etc. They are just a sensor from a digital scale that detects the flex in whatever you attach it to. You adjust the sensitivity on the controller unit to trip it when it changes more than a certain amount. They are very sensitive. Just attach it to the bottom of the bed frame, the middle of the platform in a platform bed, or a cross brace on the box spring. Set the threshold/weight on the controller, and it will trip an output wired to an input on your HA controller.

 

[ano]

You guys are way overthinking the problem of determining whether or not someone is in the bed. Use a pulsor sensor:

http://www.iautomate.com/pulsor.html

They attach to the bottom of a roof, floor joist, etc. They are just a sensor from a digital scale that detects the flex in whatever you attach it to. You adjust the sensitivity on the controller unit to trip it when it changes more than a certain amount. They are very sensitive. Just attach it to the bottom of the bed frame, the middle of the platform in a platform bed, or a cross brace on the box spring. Set the threshold/weight on the controller, and it will trip an output wired to an input on your HA controller.

Oh, if life was so easy. First of all, you need more then the sensor, you also need the processor that goes with it. This is an additional cost. Second, they aren't a "scale" they are a stress sensor. And most important, they don't detect if someone is present or not, they ONLY detect when someone enters or leaves the area where they are mounted. In other words, if you want to use them to trigger an alarm when someone steps on the area they are located, great application. If you need to know if someone is standing there or not, IT WON'T WORK. The output goes ON when someone steps in the area, but resets to OFF a few seconds later.

I've actually spoken to the inventor of these devices on the phone and he confirmed there is NO WAY for them to detect weight or presence, only a CHANGE in weight or presence. You can build a bed sensor with these but it will only tell you when someone GETS INTO BED, NOT if someone is in bed or not.

 

[signal15]

You guys are way overthinking the problem of determining whether or not someone is in the bed. Use a pulsor sensor:

http://www.iautomate.com/pulsor.html

They attach to the bottom of a roof, floor joist, etc. They are just a sensor from a digital scale that detects the flex in whatever you attach it to. You adjust the sensitivity on the controller unit to trip it when it changes more than a certain amount. They are very sensitive. Just attach it to the bottom of the bed frame, the middle of the platform in a platform bed, or a cross brace on the box spring. Set the threshold/weight on the controller, and it will trip an output wired to an input on your HA controller.

Oh, if life was so easy. First of all, you need more then the sensor, you also need the processor that goes with it. This is an additional cost. Second, they aren't a "scale" they are a stress sensor. And most important, they don't detect if someone is present or not, they ONLY detect when someone enters or leaves the area where they are mounted. In other words, if you want to use them to trigger an alarm when someone steps on the area they are located, great application. If you need to know if someone is standing there or not, IT WON'T WORK. The output goes ON when someone steps in the area, but resets to OFF a few seconds later.

I've actually spoken to the inventor of these devices on the phone and he confirmed there is NO WAY for them to detect weight or presence, only a CHANGE in weight or presence. You can build a bed sensor with these but it will only tell you when someone GETS INTO BED, NOT if someone is in bed or not.

I know it's a stress sensor, and I know it requires the controller unit for it to work. But it's the same sensor used in digital scales. It's just a flexible piece of metal or plastic with some sort of stress sensitive resistive material on one side of it. When the metal bends inward, it compresses the resistive material, when it bends outwards, it stretches it.

You can certainly use it to detect presence if it only triggers when weight is *applied* and not when it is removed. Reading the documentation, it appears this is the case. The mechanics of the device make it so mounted normally, when pressure is applied, it will trigger the controller because of the increase/change. If you mount the sensor upside-down, release of pressure will simulate pressure being applied. Use two sensors (one right side up, and another upside down) to two inputs on your HA controller to set a phantom output to on or off depending on which one triggered last.

 

[ano]

You can certainly use it to detect presence if it only triggers when weight is *applied* and not when it is removed. Reading the documentation, it appears this is the case. The mechanics of the device make it so mounted normally, when pressure is applied, it will trigger the controller because of the increase/change. If you mount the sensor upside-down, release of pressure will simulate pressure being applied. Use two sensors (one right side up, and another upside down) to two inputs on your HA controller to set a phantom output to on or off depending on which one triggered last.

I've done more than read the documentation, I own them and have spoken to the owner of the company that makes them. Turning them up-side-down makes no difference, again they don't sense weight they sense the change of stress. They are great for alarm applications but just like with a motion detector, once you stop moving you are no longer detected. The same with these.