Hard Wired Lighting

Welcome Warez!

Looks like you've gotten a lot of good advice here. I'll just add a few commentrs as well.

As far as hardwired systems, I think 3-5k would get you one display controller with a Crestron or AMX system. I think these systems are the ones that use cat5 to the devices as well. Another lower cost hardwire option is the Lightolier Multiset Pro line. It only needs one control wire to each device. This is though about 20-30% more than a Lightolier Compose system. Another issue with the hardwired systems is that once you install it, don't plan on making changes... Lightolier will be introducing a new hardwire system that will help a little in that department soon.

I'm not an electrician and codes vary, but, I can't think that there is an issue with low voltage and high voltage in the same box as long as it's all for the lighting. The hardwired light switches are designed that way.

As far as wiring your house, you can never run too much wire!

As far as running cat5 near Romex, try not to run it alongside of it (within about 1 1/2 feet at least) and if you do, try to make it less than 6 feet in length that they are running together. Also, as someone else mentioned, when crossing Romex, try to do it at a 90 degree angle whenever possible.

X10 or Zwave will provide the greatest flexibility and bang for the buck. In my office, I have Lightolier Compose installed with a firewall. In addition to the Lightolier devices, I also have other X10 devices going through that same firewall. In my house, I do have some Lightolier devices but everything is installed in a traditional X10 manner.

For a new build construction, I would really consider going straight in with a Lightolier Compose system with the firewalls. They are easy to install then and will really help make the system bulletproof. The firewall blocks unwanted circuits from interfering with your system, applifies all of your signals to 7 volts (most coupler repeaters only go to 4 volts), manage and re-transmit signals that collide, provide a built-in way to search for noise and signal strength issues, and also have a lot of cool lights on them!

For your size house, there is also no reason why you couldn't also make a traditional X10 system very reliable. With coupler/repeaters and filters and a little more trial and error, it can be accomplished.

As far as Zwave (and we do sell a lot of it), it's a really cool technology and will be interesting. As of now, there just aren't enough devices out there to get me personally too excited and I don't like the look and feel quite as much as the better X10 switches.

I am also a huge fans of 2-way communicating devices. Although the Zensys chip that is inside of the Zwave devies is 2-way, the devices are not (due to patent issues with Lutron). I don't think the dust has settled yet on the emerging RF technologies and that's why more manufacturers haven't gotten into it yet. Recently another manufacturer (Smarthome) announced still yet another RF technology due out next year.

Good luck! They are a ton of great people on this board that are willing to help you.
 
AutomatedOutlet said:
For a new build construction, I would really consider going straight in with a Lightolier Compose system with the firewalls.
I just looked those up. Looks like the switches run about the same price as hardwired switches(unless there's something I'm missing)

The more I think about it, the less I want to spend quite that much for the 35+ switches I plan to install. I'll probably just go with X10 or ZWave.

My main concern is wiring during the construction of the house. As I said, I now feel that hardwired lighting will not be feasible. So, I'm now leaning away from running Cat5 to each and every switch location.

In regards to X10, is there anything I need to consider doing before the drywall goes up? I would hate to move in to the house and find something I need to do that could've easily been done during construction.

Thanks...
 
You want an electrical neutral at every switchbox. Often switchboxes only have hot, ground and an output. Some X-10 and compatible devices require a ground connection.

Oops... that SHOULD say:

Some X-10 and compatible devices require a NEUTRAL connection.
 
Yes, make sure that neutral wires aren't shared. Also, if you think you might want to go to a Compose system later, you can buy the empty firewal boxes and run your circuits through them. That way you can switch it very easily at a later date.
 
What do you mean by neutral wires being shared?

Typically, I've seen the electrical wire running from the breaker box to about 2 lights and 2 to 4 outlets. Is this not the norm? Would this be considered sharing?
 
No, a shared neutral is when you have a breaker on a 220 volt circuit providing two circuits each of 110 volts but sharing the neutral, much like you see on a stove or dryer circuit. Shared neutral circuits for 110 volt circuits are often found in cases like outlets over kitchen counters, where seperate 15 or 20 amp circuits supply the top and bottom sockets of the outlet. This is required for counter top outlets in most electrical codes. I must admit that I have not often heard of automation problems because of shared neutrals. Still, it would be a good idea to avoid shared neutrals in circuits other then counter top outlets.
 
AutomatedOutlet said:
...you can buy the empty firewal boxes and run your circuits through them...
That sounds like a pretty good idea.
If I understand correctly, this wiring would run from the breaker box, thru the empty firewall enclosure, then out to the light switches throughout the house. If I decide to go with a Compose system later, I would simply purchase the 'guts' of the firewall, snip the existing electrical wires already running through the firewall enclosure, then hook them up to the firewall.
Is that right or did I miss something?


I did some additional reading-up on the Compose system. It seems only wiring from light switches should run through the firewall. Wiring that powers electrical outlets would not run through the firewall, nor would any single run of wiring be used for both a light switch and an electrical outlet.
Did I get that right?
 
Warez,

That's right. The advantage you have in new construction is to keep the lights wiring on breakers separate from the outlets.

Makes for much easier "automation"


My house was built in the late 60's, and back then, the electritions did things easy and "saved wire" by connecting outlets and lights on the same run from the breaker box.

In many cases, the mounting boxes for the light switches did not contain a "neutral" wire, very important to have, as mentioned in the other posts.

At lot of "sparkys" will want to argue that it is not necessary, DO NOT LET THEM WIN! Its your house.
 
JohnBullard said:
...back then, the electritions did things easy and "saved wire" by connecting outlets and lights on the same run from the breaker box...
I visited other houses being constructed in the same subdivision where we are building our house and they are also wiring things this way. One run of electrical wire to 2 lights and 2 or 3 outlets, for example. I just assumed this was the way it was usually done.

The advantage you have in new construction is to keep the lights wiring on breakers separate from the outlets. Makes for much easier "automation"
If I were to decide not to go with a Compose system, would this still be the case?
Say, for instance, I were to use X10. Would it matter that lights and outlets were wired together?
 
Warez,

Yes, it COULD make a difference. For example, a computer, TV or other electronics with a switching power supply could introduce noise on the electical line, that may require extra filtering to prevent interference with the X10 electical signals.

In the perfect wiring job, IMHO, all the lighting only circuits would be on their own breakers, and on the same electrical phase.

This would really help to ensure 99% control reliability.

It may cost a few extra bucks on the initial installation, but would really minimize later expenses for coupling, amplifing, and filtering.

Most people that have issues with X10, didn't bother to properly couple and filter their power lines.

You have the advantage in new construction to have your wiring optimized for future Home Automation.

As I said earlier, most Sparkys have no clue to your future plans, or what is required to accomplish them. They just want to do things the easy way for them, get paid, and go on the next job.

Its your house, have it wired to meet your needs
 
Warez,

Your thoughts about those Lightolier empty enclusures is right.

I recently helped a friend to his new contrustion house. He had lighting and outlet circuits separate but we did run some of the outlets through his firewalls as well. We did this for a few reasons. We knew that we would connect a computer interface to his system for control (in this case HomeSeer) and also we wanted to make sure that he had the option of using things like lamp modules, etc.

Reliabilty I don't feel was jepodized by doing this. Areas with the big major appliances are still separate from the firewall and also each circuit is individually filtered by the firewall. If he does need some individual plugin filters, they can also be added if necessary.

In his house, he had 70+ circuits. We sent 32 of them though firewalls. It's a 7,000 square foot house though.
 
JohnBullard said:
Yes, it COULD make a difference. For example, a computer, TV or other electronics with a switching power supply could introduce noise on the electical line, that may require extra filtering to prevent interference with the X10 electical signals.
If something introduced noise onto the electrical line, wouldn't this noise affect the entire house? Or does the noise only affect connections that would be on the same run of wiring?(i.e. Does the noise essentially stop(or get filtered) at the breaker box?)
 
Nope, no noise filtering at the circuit breaker box (unless something was put in there specifically for that purpose which is very uncommon). The circuit breakers are nothing but heat sensitive switches. when they are On, they pass whatever is on the A/C line.

I have a ton of electrical gadgets, PCs, UPSs, power strips, fans, compressors, wallwarts, RF stuff, and no problems with noise (knock on wood...). I bought a A/C filter just in case, but it hasn't been out of the box yet.

I wired my house so was sure to home run wire all major lighting circuits and other circuits that I thought might be controllable in case I wanted to put one of the big buck HA switching panels. No need for that major upgrade as the X10 is working fine. The thing that got it all working reliable was a $300 coupler / repeater that is on the main power panel. Night and Day difference...
 
DavidL said:
Nope, no noise filtering at the circuit breaker box (unless something was put in there specifically for that purpose which is very uncommon). The circuit breakers are nothing but heat sensitive switches. when they are On, they pass whatever is on the A/C line.
That's what I thought.
Well in that case, it sounds like it really wouldn't matter to run wiring for lighting separately from the wiring for outlets if a firewall is not going to be used.

I may sound a little frustrated, but believe me.. I'm not. It's just that this is all new info to me and I'm trying my best to not only understand, but also to understand 'why'.
I don't want to go through the trouble of explaining to the electrician how I want things wired differently than the norm, and possibly have to pay additional fees(due to more hours put in by the electrician), if everything gets wired together at the breaker box anyway and a noisy appliance still affects the lights. What's the point?
(This is of course assuming not going with a Compose firewall.)

AutomatedOutlet said:
With the Lightolier firewall, the noise would get isolated to just that circuit.
What I'm wondering is whether this firewall is really necessary. I mean, from the posts I've read here and elsewhere, it sounds like after a coupler/repeater is added, most people don't have very many problems with X10. If they do, adding a filter to a noisy appliance or two seems to take care of the problem.
As I said, I don't want for myself or the electrician to go through all the extra trouble if it's really not worth it.
 
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