Help spec'ing out Elk system!

[SpeedDemon]

Hi,

It's time to order and install an Elk M1 Gold that will be used for security + light HA duties in a new construction. Other HA systems to be installed include Centralite Elegance XL, CQC, Rainnet, Aprilaire 8870's, and Nuvo GC. Unfortunately I'm pretty much on my own on this one, the alarm installer who's putting in the Elk mostly does general alarm systems and can't help me much on using the M1G beyond alarm functions.

As a beginner in all of this, I have some general questions regarding the Elk. Help with any of these questions is appreciated!

1) What are the 10 50mA outputs on the M1G panel typically used for?
2) Am I covered for communication with just the serial port expander talking to CQC/the PC (and maybe direct to a couple of the other HA components given the expander has 3 serial ports?) or do I need the ethernet port expander for fuller functionality?
3) Should I use the Elk-branded temp sensors for various interior room/exterior temps? What type of wire should be run for these? In the case of flush-mount (hidden) sensors which Elk doesn't offer, what is recommended? Also, for my roof, is the probe on the Elk M1-ZTR ok for direct sunlight?
4) I've noticed some Elk owners mention using speakers indoors instead of sirens. Is this because you could still play an alarm siren over them, but also dual-purpose them for announcements? Is the siren that would play over the speaker as loud/effective as a dedicated siren? Which part # is recommended?
5) Assuming folks agree that interior speakers are the way to go over interior siren, what's a general rule of thumb for quantity/placement? Our house is all-bedrooms upstairs, and the typical remaining rooms downstairs. I will guess placement in my case is two for the 2nd floor: master bedroom, hallway of the other bedrooms, and maybe 1-2 in a common area of the "open-style" first floor (kitchen/family/entry). Maybe one in the outside covered-patio?
6) Is it really worth the expense to buy & wire separate motion detectors outside that would then activate exterior lights via the lighting control system, vs. using unintelligent standalone motion-light combo hardware?

Here's my order list. If anyone could comment regarding tips and if I've covered my bases that would be great. Including -- is there any useful but not mandatory functionality I should be wiring for that isn't addressed below?

- Basic M1G package (panel, keypad, 2 contacts, 1 motion, siren)
- Aux can, zone expanders, add'l keypads, contacts for openings, battery backup
- 2 exterior sirens
- 4 interior speaker/siren ELK-SP12F (??). Is something needed to drive this beyond the Basic M1 pkg?
- 1 ELK-M1DBH (Data bus hub)
- 6 total interior motion sensors (some for HA use rather than security)
- 3 total smoke/heat sensors. (Garage, 1 upstairs loc, 1 downstairs loc)
- Wire for watershutoff valve (Cat5?). Elk's WSV itself seems too pricey
- 2 Garage door sensors (recommendation on which sensor to use?)
- 6 temperature sensors: 4 flush-mnt for bathrooms, 1 roof (ELK-M1ZTR with probe exposed to direct sunlight?), 1 covered patio (ELK M1ZTS)
- Contact closures: Mailbox, any exterior-located panels (electric etc; phone panel isn't located outside)
- 2 Cat6 to laundry room to cover: moisture sensor and 2 future "washer/dryer - Done!" indicators
- Moisture sensors (wire type?): 1 under kitchen fridge, 1 near plumbed coffee maker
- Phone/Doorbell Ring detector (ELK 930)

Thanks much!

 

[123]

What are the 10 50mA outputs on the M1G panel typically used for?
To drive relays. I use ELK's Relay expander modules for this purpose.

Am I covered for communication with just the serial port expander ... or do I need the ethernet port expander for fuller functionality?
The serial port provides access to the M1 for a single application such as CQC or Elk RP. The Ethernet interface offers the convenience of concurrent access to the M1 by multiple applications.

Should I use the Elk-branded temp sensors for various interior room/exterior temps? ...
I've never used them. Apparently, they have a very utilitarian appearance; it may be challenging to blend them into your home's decor.

I've noticed some Elk owners mention using speakers indoors instead of sirens ...
...what's a general rule of thumb for quantity/placement?
I have a flush-mount speaker concealed behind each keypad and one compact speaker per floor. Very useful for general announcements and their siren tone is plenty loud. I use one external siren (no external speakers) and a strobe. If you put a speaker outside, your neighbours will hear all of your general announcements.

 

[apostolakisl]

I would get the ethernet board. It opens up lots of other possibilities not the least of which is controlling/checkingup on your system over the internet. With the 232 port you will have to either telephone into your system or actually plug your computer directly into the system every time you want to tweak the programs.

I have a single speaker hidden in a return air line of my 6500sf house. It is almost loud enough to understand everywhere. After a while, I turned off almost all of the anouncements anyway because they were just anoying. The siren is plenty loud over the single speaker for interior use.

The relays are nice. Let's you control all kinds of things. I put 24 extra relays on my system and the elk runs the entire sprinkler system on its own. Also it opens and closes the garage doors and turns on and off the elk water shut off valve 40 minutes after I arm the system to away mode. (my sprinkler line comes off the main line before the valve). Use your imagination and you could have the elk control all kinds of other stuff.

I would put motion detectors on your alarm that then trigger a rule in the elk to turn the lights on. This gives you many more options for controlling those lights, how long they stay on, what time of day they will work, sending a signal inside to alert you that motion was detected outside, and others

 

[mustangcoupe]

Hi,

It's time to order and install an Elk M1 Gold that will be used for security + light HA duties in a new construction. Other HA systems to be installed include Centralite Elegance XL, CQC, Rainnet, Aprilaire 8870's, and Nuvo GC. Unfortunately I'm pretty much on my own on this one, the alarm installer who's putting in the Elk mostly does general alarm systems and can't help me much on using the M1G beyond alarm functions.

As a beginner in all of this, I have some general questions regarding the Elk. Help with any of these questions is appreciated!

1) What are the 10 50mA outputs on the M1G panel typically used for?
2) Am I covered for communication with just the serial port expander talking to CQC/the PC (and maybe direct to a couple of the other HA components given the expander has 3 serial ports?) or do I need the ethernet port expander for fuller functionality?
3) Should I use the Elk-branded temp sensors for various interior room/exterior temps? What type of wire should be run for these? In the case of flush-mount (hidden) sensors which Elk doesn't offer, what is recommended? Also, for my roof, is the probe on the Elk M1-ZTR ok for direct sunlight?
4) I've noticed some Elk owners mention using speakers indoors instead of sirens. Is this because you could still play an alarm siren over them, but also dual-purpose them for announcements? Is the siren that would play over the speaker as loud/effective as a dedicated siren? Which part # is recommended?
5) Assuming folks agree that interior speakers are the way to go over interior siren, what's a general rule of thumb for quantity/placement? Our house is all-bedrooms upstairs, and the typical remaining rooms downstairs. I will guess placement in my case is two for the 2nd floor: master bedroom, hallway of the other bedrooms, and maybe 1-2 in a common area of the "open-style" first floor (kitchen/family/entry). Maybe one in the outside covered-patio?
6) Is it really worth the expense to buy & wire separate motion detectors outside that would then activate exterior lights via the lighting control system, vs. using unintelligent standalone motion-light combo hardware?

Here's my order list. If anyone could comment regarding tips and if I've covered my bases that would be great. Including -- is there any useful but not mandatory functionality I should be wiring for that isn't addressed below?

- Basic M1G package (panel, keypad, 2 contacts, 1 motion, siren)
- Aux can, zone expanders, add'l keypads, contacts for openings, battery backup
- 2 exterior sirens
- 4 interior speaker/siren ELK-SP12F (??). Is something needed to drive this beyond the Basic M1 pkg?
- 1 ELK-M1DBH (Data bus hub)
- 6 total interior motion sensors (some for HA use rather than security)
- 3 total smoke/heat sensors. (Garage, 1 upstairs loc, 1 downstairs loc)
- Wire for watershutoff valve (Cat5?). Elk's WSV itself seems too pricey
- 2 Garage door sensors (recommendation on which sensor to use?)
- 6 temperature sensors: 4 flush-mnt for bathrooms, 1 roof (ELK-M1ZTR with probe exposed to direct sunlight?), 1 covered patio (ELK M1ZTS)
- Contact closures: Mailbox, any exterior-located panels (electric etc; phone panel isn't located outside)
- 2 Cat6 to laundry room to cover: moisture sensor and 2 future "washer/dryer - Done!" indicators
- Moisture sensors (wire type?): 1 under kitchen fridge, 1 near plumbed coffee maker
- Phone/Doorbell Ring detector (ELK 930)

Thanks much!

I highly recommend reading the Wiring your new house serier (101, 102, 103) on the CT:Wiki http://www.cocoontech.com/w/index.php?titl...fulltext=Search this will guide you to wire types for different sensors, and what you may want in each room/floor for overall HA purposes.

as for your questions
1) Relays, you can drive relays to perform other tasks, ie. irrigation
2) Im not sure where you see 3 outputs but the main board has one and the expander has one.
3) I dont think you can use any other temp sensors, if you find out otherwise please let us know
4) I use speakers inside only not outside, and no sirens inside
5) 1 common area, 1 each bedroom for me, 1 basement (most likely overkill but ....)
6) I control my outdoor lights via time of day not motion.

 

[WayneW]

If you put a speaker outside, your neighbours will hear all of your general announcements.

Are you sure? I haven't tried this myself, but I was planning to do it and I thought Spanky said the exterior speaker goes silent when the inside speaker is talking.

 

[AceCannon]

If you put a speaker outside, your neighbours will hear all of your general announcements.

Are you sure? I haven't tried this myself, but I was planning to do it and I thought Spanky said the exterior speaker goes silent when the inside speaker is talking.

I have a "speaker" on output two set to siren, mounted in a vent in my roof (pic below, the Elk-44). The Elk's built-in siren driver turns the speaker into a siren. My understanding is that a true siren (which is a speaker with a siren driver) connected to output two means the output needs to be set for "voltage". With a speaker used as a siren, you have the option of having the Elk change the siren sound to an industrial klaxon sound.

Output 2 does not get the announcements that output 1 gets, so I (hope) my neighbors are not getting a play-by-play from the Elk chick.

 

[pipeman]

2) Am I covered for communication with just the serial port expander talking to CQC/the PC (and maybe direct to a couple of the other HA components given the expander has 3 serial ports?) or do I need the ethernet port expander for fuller functionality?

The expander has 3 communication options, but you must pick one and connect it for that protocol. RS-232, RS-485 and (dedicated) RS-485
The Ethernet interface is great, I think it should be a built-in component.

4) I've noticed some Elk owners mention using speakers indoors instead of sirens. Is this because you could still play an alarm siren over them, but also dual-purpose them for announcements? Is the siren that would play over the speaker as loud/effective as a dedicated siren? Which part # is recommended?

I had trouble with the exterior Elk siren (ELK-150RT) whining all the time, that output (#3), is full time monitored for tampering or failure. That small current was enough to drive me crazy. The factory advised a fix, but that only helped slightly. I removed the on-board driver, which turns it into an ELK-1RT, changed the output 3 option and am very happy. The alarm signals are sent to both output 2 and output 3 and everything is synched up nicely. All normal voice is sent to output 2 (inside) only and you have the option of sending voice outside if you want.
The strobe mounts nicely on the ELK-1RT, but be sure to have enough wiring at that location. I would go with a cat5 and a 18/2. 18/2 for the speaker/siren, one pair for the built-in tamper switches and double up for the strobe.
Inside, I am adding speakers. My thoughts are leaning towards many speakers at a lower volume as compared to few at a higher volume. There are separate volume settings for alarm / non-alarm. You will have plenty of noise on an alarm. The speaker behind my flush keypad is muffled, I'll be changing that. I don't know if they are clearer mounted behind the (non flush mount) M1KP.

Speaking of keypads, I failed to notice that only the M1KP pads have built-in temperature sensors, bummer.

Aux can in the garage for sure, I used a separate power supply here, with battery, input expander, output expander, keypad and speaker. single cat5 and an 18/2. Extra cat5 for music/ intercom, extra cat6 for computer.


I might go with the newer SP12?? that has the built-in microphone. That would allow the use of the two-way listen-in board which adds all kinds of interesting uses. For now, the ELK can drive plenty of the SP12's

- 3 total smoke/heat sensors. (Garage, 1 upstairs loc, 1 downstairs loc)

Maybe add one for each sleeping area.

- 2 Garage door sensors (recommendation on which sensor to use?)

I used the heavy, armored wire style on the floor, but since then, i've seen some pretty slick mounts on the overhead track.

Good luck,

Sonny

 

[sic0048]

Yeah, I used one of the garage door sensors that mount on the door track. It is more expensive than the normal floor mount types - about $25 compared to about $10. But the ability to mount the sensor high up on the track and out of the way made it worth the extra cost IMHO.

I used a Sentrol 2315A-L sensor in my setup.

Current code generally requires 1 smoke alarm in each bedroom as well as 1 additional smoke alarm on each floor. All the smoke detectors should be tied together so if one goes off, it sets off all the other detectors.

 

[apostolakisl]

I used the same regular magnetic contact closure on my garage overhead doors as I used on all the regular doors. No problems at all. I just screwed in a small piece of wood to one of the brackets that hold the track. Drilled the 3/8 in hole that you normally do for the plug type magnetic contact closures and it has worked without flaw since installed one year ago.

 

[signal15]

AutomatedOutlet has some Garage door sensors with armored cable that have a 2.5-4" magnet range. I mounted them at the *top* of my door to the header. Works awesome. Why would you put the sensor on the floor?

 

[Neurorad]

My installer put them on the floor, too, for my old system. I'll probably move them, when the new system goes in.

 

[AceCannon]

I also used regular surface-mount magnetic switches for the overhead doors without problems. I mounted them at the top of the door. The magnetic field appears plenty large enough to work reliably. Can post a pic if it would help.

 

[russban]

My 2 cents worth...

As an installer I have used many different types of contacts for garage doors but I find that in the long run the Sentrol 2315's that mount on the track are by far the most reliable and don't have callbacks for readjustments, etc.

When you mount the outdoor temperature sensor you want to avoid direct sunlight at all costs. You want to measure ambient air temp, not how hot it gets with direct sunlight shining on it. I usually mount on the north side under the eve.

Elk's temp sensors are ugly and do not fit into the decor inside! I would love to find an alternate flush mount or even a nice enclosure to fit it inside.

 

[AceCannon]

Elk's temp sensors are ugly and do not fit into the decor inside! I would love to find an alternate flush mount or even a nice enclosure to fit it inside.

My tentative plan for temp monitoring is going to be 1-Wire via CQC. Some links I've gleaned about this over a couple years' worth of reading the forums:


Qkits $40 interface that can talk to 4 Dallas DS18S20 probes

This links to a post by IVB where he talked about getting this gadget working with CQC (on AVS forum). I'd love to hear an update about these from him!

 

[sic0048]

Elk's temp sensors are ugly and do not fit into the decor inside! I would love to find an alternate flush mount or even a nice enclosure to fit it inside.

My tentative plan for temp monitoring is going to be 1-Wire via CQC. Some links I've gleaned about this over a couple years' worth of reading the forums:


Qkits $40 interface that can talk to 4 Dallas DS18S20 probes

This links to a post by IVB where he talked about getting this gadget working with CQC (on AVS forum). I'd love to hear an update about these from him!

There is a CQC driver for the VK011. I know several people use them and there hasn't been any discussion about them in a while, so I think they must work as expected.