Holy Power Costs, batman!

[politics123]

Your hot water tank should be able to keep the hot-water "hot" for quite a while:
1) The water can become quite hot. Today was a 55-60 degree day, but we ended up creating 160 degree water (you will definitely need a tempering valve!). After about 5 hours of sun, the top of my tank is 160-ish degrees, the bottom is around 150.
2) Typically, I'll lose a few degrees overnight, but really not that much

Of course, when you use the hot water (say at night), cold water will enter the water heater. The real question becomes whether your backup source heats the cold water, or whether you disable it and let the sun work its magic the next day. I use an ELK 9100 to control my water heater... and some basic automation rules for when to power the heating elements and when to wait.

Good point ... I hadn't thought about overheating the water during the day to utilize the solar energy while you have it.

I wonder how efficient you could get with a solar system feeding a storage tank and feeding through a tankless heater. Seems like you might get the best of both worlds if you can ensure the system is sized to work when you get that week long blizzard in winter.

Yup. Super-heated water combined with a tempering valve also has the added benefit of making an 80 gallon tank "seem" larger than that. (my 80 gallon tank results in about 100 gallons of 120 degree water)

You'll definitely need a backup heat source. But I don't think tankless is really going to help you out. This is because you need a solar storage tank anyway (either a normal water heater or a specially-built solar storage tank), and these come with heating elements. Solar storage tanks tend to be super-insulated, and if you use a normal water-heater, you'll add insulation (see my post above... $30 is pretty cheap upgrade)

Solar system should be sized to handle 75-85% of your annual hot water needs. So really, you're looking at the extra cost of a tankless heater compared to the cost savings of heating 15-25% of your water via tankless vs. with the tank you already bought, which already has good insulation.

Don't get me wrong: if you're going tankless it for environmental goals, go-for-it (but remember to weight the environmental cost in constructing the tankless sytem) but I don't think it'll help your break-even.

As for snow...
1) especially in the north, you're going to want to mount the thing at a steep angle (usually equal to your longitude). Mine is mounted 45 degrees, and I'm only 39 degrees north. This gives you better winter performance and worse summer performance, but you don't realy need the help in summer
2) The steepness of the moutn should help the snow from accumulating
3) These things absorb heat even when its not sunny. I'd bet that it melts the snow off. However, you should confirm that with a local installer

www.findsolar.com in the US and Canada is a great resource for local installers

mh

 

[George West]

I don't think solar power is affordable for homeowners yet. I looked into it at one time many years ago and there were just to many years before I would reach the break even point of money outlaid for it to be worth it. Now maybe this technology is much cheaper than when I first looked into it, just not sure...

There are days that I think the solar power industry gives the insurance industry a run for its money in the race to the bottom. From the question is it peak power or average daily power you want to install to the wacky way they compute the effective interest rate on the investment (30 yr average of the the 10 year bond) to the embedded 5% a year annual growth in the cost of power (inflation corrected or not no one seems to know)

Fine Homebuilding published an article on the relative costs for an equivalent system in different parts of the country.

www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/PDF/Free/021192056.pdf

It seems that NV has the double advantage of lot's of cloud free days, lower lattitude/high angle of solar incidence. From the article FL cocooners have it the best. Net power metering, good solar incidence and good subsidies.

In my particular case solar never pays off. I have lots of south facing windows so the lights are off most of the day. The electric bill is running something like $80/month right now. It would go lower if I buy a new refrigerator and convince the spouse that she only needs to run the dryer 55 minutes instead of 70 on the average. Of course that picture will change when I buy that 50" flat panel...

George West
www.wtrs.net

 

[Ranger Digital]

well call me stupid, but I STILL dont get the whole sagetv gig. Not even interested in it yet. They need to fire their webdesigner. Yup, it still sucks.

Heh, and your solution for centralized but distributed TV timeshifting is what?

Um TV timeshifting? Have to look that one up.

Thanks bfisher.

Might try it someday but right now plate is full and I have a matrix switch.

 

[IVB]

well call me stupid, but I STILL dont get the whole sagetv gig. Not even interested in it yet. They need to fire their webdesigner. Yup, it still sucks.

Heh, and your solution for centralized but distributed TV timeshifting is what?

Um TV timeshifting? Have to look that one up.

Timeshifting is basically fancy-speak for "digital video recorder". What Sage allows you to do, and no other option as far as I know, is to have your Satellite/Cable come into a single location, and a single "server" for setting up the recording schedule. You can then use the HDExtender as clients to render that centralized video recording or live TV in any SDTV or HDTV you want.

Tivo allows networking, but you have to manually setup different schedules per unit, which is pretty much a waste of life.

Besides, if you don't like the SageTV UI, it's got an open API, so it's skinnable via a UMPC. Of course, assuming you don't want to learn SageStudio and create your won. Et Voila. Clicking on the "watch show" would allow you to achieve playback on the 8watt extenders.

 

[upstatemike]

The Sage site is very confusing... do you just need Media Center 6.3 or do you also have to add Sage TV Recorder 1.5? It also says you can record from a satellite box controlled via serial connection but it does not list which satellite receiver models support a serial connection nor which video card you need to connect to the sat box. (I assume a component video capture card of some sort?) Many video cards are listed on the site bt no details about the differences to help you know when to choose one over the other.

I was looking for a diagram/parts list for say 2 serially controlled SAT boxes, a DVD changer, and 4 analog cable tuners configured to feed 4 HD extenders.

(also this is probably getting OT for this thread)

 

[IVB]

gimme a few hours, i'll write up a diagram and start a new thread as this is a common question. BTW, no way to feed the DVD Changer to the HDExtender, that's the huge hole with the setup. But there is a workaround, look for that thread.

 

[Waynedb]

The Sage site is very confusing... do you just need Media Center 6.3 or do you also have to add Sage TV Recorder 1.5? It also says you can record from a satellite box controlled via serial connection but it does not list which satellite receiver models support a serial connection nor which video card you need to connect to the sat box. (I assume a component video capture card of some sort?) Many video cards are listed on the site bt no details about the differences to help you know when to choose one over the other.

I was looking for a diagram/parts list for say 2 serially controlled SAT boxes, a DVD changer, and 4 analog cable tuners configured to feed 4 HD extenders.

(also this is probably getting OT for this thread)

You only need SageTV Media Center on the server side. I believe some Direct TV receivers have serial control. In most cases people were using PVR cards like the Hauppauge PVR-250 to record Standard Definition programs. Sage also supports R5000HD modded Dish Network and 4DTV satellite receivers and some cable boxes to record Standard Definition or High Definition programming.

In my case I have an ATI HDTV wonder card, a Hauppauge HVR-1600 plus a R5000HD modded Satellite receiver. Sage TV changes the channels on my Satellite receiver over a USB connection and the program streams are sent over that same cable to the computer. If you are recording analog only you could use Hauppauge PVR-500 dual tuner cards to save on PCI slots. I would think you would want ATSC OTA HD tuners also for Local HD. I use the Hauppauge HVR-1600 and an ATI HDTV wonder card for recording over the air HD channels.

It all works together seemlessly, I get a nice program guide that lets me schedule any shows I want to watch and it will record from all my sources at the
same time if needed.

 

[upstatemike]

You only need SageTV Media Center on the server side. I believe some Direct TV receivers have serial control. In most cases people were using PVR cards like the Hauppauge PVR-250 to record Standard Definition programs. Sage also supports R5000HD modded Dish Network and 4DTV satellite receivers and some cable boxes to record Standard Definition or High Definition programming.

In my case I have an ATI HDTV wonder card, a Hauppauge HVR-1600 plus a R5000HD modded Satellite receiver. Sage TV changes the channels on my Satellite receiver over a USB connection and the program streams are sent over that same cable to the computer. If you are recording analog only you could use Hauppauge PVR-500 dual tuner cards to save on PCI slots. I would think you would want ATSC OTA HD tuners also for Local HD. I use the Hauppauge HVR-1600 and an ATI HDTV wonder card for recording over the air HD channels.

It all works together seemlessly, I get a nice program guide that lets me schedule any shows I want to watch and it will record from all my sources at the
same time if needed.

I use Sony SAT-HD300 satellite receivers. They have serial ports and I like them enough that I don't want to change them for a different model. I have Standard analog cable just for local traffic and news but the Standard rate just shot up to $60 so I may drop cable completely. Digital cable is not an option because it does not offer NASA TV or national network feeds. (I depend on the 3 hr delayed "second chance" to record stuff that I stumble upon during random channel surfing.)

 

[politics123]

For those interested in Solar, this site provides a wealth of information:

http://www.pasolar.ncat.org/lesson01.php

 

[bfisher]

I'm sure IVB will answer many of your questions about Sage in the other thread (once it's done, I don't see it yet) - but in short, Sage's product is open, it really doesn't care what satellite boxes you use, tuners cards, etc. That is part of why the site is confusing... they aren't limiting you to anything specific so there is no 1 "right", or even typical, setup.

Regarding satellite tuners - once you use Sage, you won't control them anymore. It is completely transparent to you what STBs are being used because you are interacting with Sage which controls them.

Many STBs are controllable via serial or USB cable. The ones that aren't - you use IR.

For example, I have 2 Avermedia M780 cards and 1 Hauppauge 1800. All the cards have SVideo in (for my DirecTV) and Digital tuners (for QAM or OTA (which is what I use)). I couldn't even tell you what my Satellite boxes are anymore - they are in the server closet and Sage manages them. If 1 is busy and it needs one, it goes to the next one (I can prioritize them if I need to for some reason).

The best way to think of it is that you have many inputs (tuner cards) and many outputs (extenders). Assemble them how you like so it fits your needs. Make sure your Server has enough horsepower and hard drive space. I chose 3 antenna tuner cards (75% of my recording is High Def for my wife via OTA), and 3 satellite inputs for everything else. I have 5 Extenders (one at each TV) that can watch anything I've recorded or any DVDs that we want. All the favorites, and recording schedules are managed in 1 place (via extender or via web browser).

It's like taking 5 or 6 Tivos, smashing them all together, and making them all work as 1 unit with 5 or 6 unique outputs so any TV can watch what it wants... plus DVDs, music, pictures, etc.

Hope that helps...

 

[IVB]

work drama, and neighborhood watch meeting until 9pm, will write it up after that.

 

[mdiehl]

FYI, the tax credits for PV Solar have been extended to the end of 2008.


When discussing the relatively high costs of Solar in general, there is a side that is missed here and in a lot of other discussions...
Once you have acquired the hardware (unless the bank "owns" some of it too, as in a Loan), the power is YOURS. Consider the many scenarios that would leave large parts of the state/country without power (I can think of quite a few...). If you have the ability to at least run your furnace or heat hot water (gas fired tankless etc.), for two or three days or longer, the "economics" change greatly if you can keep a light on and stay warm whilst the rest of the town (or countryside) is dark and cold...

This is of course relative, some apparently have "McMansions" and run Aluminum Smelters for "appliances" <_<

 

[Ranger Digital]

ivb that will be a popular thread! and a needed one, IMO. Ok, back to topic!

 

[felixrosbergen]

I do like the idea of a low-power box though, certainly value-add if you don't have another PC running 24x7. Probably only useful for those folks not running SageTV or a db server as you'd then need a NAS or fileserver box, killing off any power savings.

Yea this was my point. A low powered pc and a 1 TB external drive uses far less power than a normal PC.

Oho, now that's the difference between us! I'm approaching 5 years of using SageTV, there is literally zero chance I could get away with 1 TB - I have 1.5TB for SageTV alone, 3.5TB (usable) in a variety of hard disks.

I can't just put it on a single NAS either; i've got 1 200GB RAID1 for email/finance/digital pictures, 1.5TB RAID5 for TV, 1 400GB RAID1 for lossless CDs, and 1.5TB in JBOD ripped DVDs. That's ~12 hard disks in 4 physical seperate arrays. It'll be distributed to 2 different 24x7 PCs.

I could reduce that to 3 arrays (email/etc, TV+DVD, CDs), but that's as far as I'd be willing to go. Any more and you're crossing the streams unsafely. IIRC, a NAS is about 60W, 3 of them are 180W, add that to the 22W for the zTroller and you're well over what a regular PC would do.

Don't worry Rupp - you too will be an HTPC freak soon enough, at which point the zTroller won't be that big a deal as you may as well squish it onto your mega-file server :unsure:

HI IVB, What are you using for NAS array's? External to your SageTvServer?

This thread has been an eye opener, i had all sorts of wild plans for my new home but will definetly be looking at the power consumption aspect of it much closer.

Could you recommend a relatively low power (but still good enough for 4 to 6 tuners) rackmounted 24/7 PC that would be sufficient strong to run SageTV sever, CQC, maybe some minor DB, EventGhost and some other minor apps (like stream internet radio to a russound CAV)?

 

[IVB]

I have RAID built into my mobo, so I use those. The Intel ICH8R chipset rocks.

If you can handle just using HDExtenders with SageTV, you can get a much lower power PC. electron turned me on to the Core2Duo Mobile as it'll have SpeedStep which allows it to cycle down when not in use. Then, you just need a mobo with the RAID chipsets on it. Nothing you mention is big on cpu usage.