Insteon questions

[pkoslow]

... but we do keep the font door locked WHILE we're home.  The front door only unlocks for 5mins when we arrive, and then locks back up.

I don't want to sound naive but isn't that a bit extreme? Do you live next to a prison or something?

I don't think it's extreme... we live in a nice neighborhood, but bad things can happen anywhere. Our place has 11 outside doors and there are always a few unlocked while were home, but they are in the back of the house which is enclosed with a fence and gate, not the front door.

We have a courtyard in the front of the house that has a a gate with an electric strike to lock it... when this gate is locked you can't even get to the front door. The gate is only locked at night and while we're gone (RFID opens it all up when we return). There are doorbells at the coutyard gate and by the front door, so visitors can ring the bell from either spot. There's a hardwired button inside the front door which will unlock the couryard gate (without the assistance of any HA). This way, if someone rings from outside the locked gate you can greet them from the front door and buzz them in if needed.

OK, I read back through this.... now it does sound extreme!

Our house was built by a retired CIA guy (he served from Kennedy thru Reagan), so it has some "interesting" features. Each interior room with the exception of one bathroom has an exterior door, plus access into two other rooms! Sounds weird, but the layout is really very nice and visitors don't even notice all the doors (3 in each room) until you mention it. The backyard is surrounded by a nice wooden fence which has "escape hatches" for lack of a better term in several key areas. From the outiside, these gates aren't even noticible as they blend into the fence with hidden hinges. The mail box is built into the front wall of the courtyard and opens at each end so you can get the mail without goig outside the gate.

Anyway... back to the original topic. If someone wanted to barge into our house, chances are they would try to get in the front door. If it's locked, this will at least slow them down and bottom line, it makes my girlfriend feel safer which makes me happy.

Happy Holidays,
Paul

 

[Steve]

QUOTE (Steve @ Dec 21 2005, 05:26 PM)
There are many people 'on the fence' between UPB and Insteon and IMHO its mostly because of the aggressive pricing Smarthome has used to seed the market. Word on the street is that early next year Smarthome will be raising prices back up.


Where did you see the tip on this price increase? Any more details on when and how much?

It was mentioned in the chat room. Don't think there are any details yet.

 

[Mike C]

For those interested in RFID, see http://phidgets.com/index.php?module=pncom...view&CID=9&KID=

 

[smee]

For those interested in RFID, see http://phidgets.com/index.php?module=pncom...view&CID=9&KID=

The phidgets reader only works when the tags are within a few inches of the reader. This is a different animal from the one discussed above (in an Insteon thread?).

Parallax also makes a similar reader (read within a few inches) that works well. I wrote a script to use the Parallax reader with Homeseer but it can be adapted to anything - Homeseer script for Parallax RFID reader. If you follow the link to the discussion, you can see how popular that was .

There was also some discussion here: Parallax RFID discussion on Homeseer board.

 

[Mike]

... but we do keep the font door locked WHILE we're home.  The front door only unlocks for 5mins when we arrive, and then locks back up.

I don't want to sound naive but isn't that a bit extreme? Do you live next to a prison or something?

There have also been reports of 'home invasions', and not in areas next to prisons. I'll have to find the article I was reading, I believe it was about long island and there were like 60 so far this year, but it also referenced other areas as well.

 

[upstatemike]

I'll have to find the article I was reading, I believe it was about long island and there were like 60 so far this year, but it also referenced other areas as well.

I might have heard something about that but I figure hey, that's downstate!

 

[electron]

don't get too comfy, they just linked a bunch of night time home invasions to 1 person, right here in Syracuse

 

[upstatemike]

don't get too comfy, they just linked a bunch of night time home invasions to 1 person, right here in Syracuse

I might have heard something about that but I figure hey, Syracuse, that's down in the lowlands!

 

[upstatemike]

There are many people 'on the fence' between UPB and Insteon and IMHO its mostly because of the aggressive pricing Smarthome has used to seed the market... ...If it weren't for the current pricing different, many more people would be putting in UPB right now.

I'm not sure I follow your point here. I agree UPB has technical advantages and "first to market" advantages over Insteon, but you say people are buying Insteon anyway because of Smarthomes aggressive pricing.

So what is stopping UPB companies from offering aggressive pricing as well? With all of their other advantages they should be able to nip Insteon in the bud if they would just make the effort to do so.

For that matter, what was it that prevented UPB manufacturers from using a shallower form factor to make their switches easier to install the way Insteon did? Just laziness on the part of the designers?

What prevented the UPB folks from offering features that end users find attractive such as LED level indicator bars and interchangeable light pipes? Did they only listen to what installers wanted and ignore end user marketing opportunities?

If people are on the fence between UPB and Insteon it is not because the Insteon folks are employing unfair tactics. It is because UPB isn't really trying all that hard. UPB had the opportunity to lock in the title of being "the new standard" for home automation protocols and they just let it slip away. Now they have real competition and market dominance will come a lot harder if at all.

 

[Steve]

My point was simple. I don't disagree at all about the things UPB manufacturers coulda woulda shoulda done or can do. I look at UPB and Insteon technology being roughly equivalent. They are both virtually instant and probably (not enuff time on Insteon yet) very reliable. UPB has some 'fluff' that Insteon doesn't and vica versa. Those are just little things that may sway people one way or the other (light pipes vs LED's, Multiple changeable faceplates, depth) that kinda stuff. The big problem is that TODAY you can not do an Insteon install like you can with UPB. There is no setup software and all the vendors don't support it yet. I still can not use Insteon with my M1 for example. Yes, soon that may change but who knows when? So the point is if that Insteons price was in the same ballpark as UPBs and people want to do something NOW, UPB is really the only choice. It is the huge price difference that is making people wait for Insteon. Although not that different when you compare 1000W switches.

Nothing wrong with Insteon and I'm sure it will be a hot competitor to UPB especially when they come out with their setup software and have wide vendor support. At that time it may be a much easier choice for people, especially DIY if SH doesn't raise their prices back up or UPB drop them. I look forward to the healthy competition.

 

[pkoslow]

So what is stopping UPB companies from offering aggressive pricing as well? With all of their other advantages they should be able to nip Insteon in the bud if they would just make the effort to do so.

What prevented the UPB folks from offering features that end users find attractive such as LED level indicator bars and interchangeable light pipes? Did they only listen to what installers wanted and ignore end user marketing opportunities?

I expect that UPB manufacturers don't want to compete with Insteon pricing. I think they will try to keep their prices up so UPB remains attractive to the professional installer. The difference between dealer pricing and retail on a $20 Icon switch is insignificant. A professional installer would need to sell a handful to generate enough profit to buy lunch!

On the other hand... UPD devices still allow for small profit to the installer which is a big deal if you're trying to do this for a living.

Smarthome will probably easily win over the DIY market once the technology matures a bit more. UPB will probably plug along for the foreseeable future as the choice of professional installers.

I think the UPB manufacturers are listening to the end users (not just the pro installers). Several are actively monitoring this message board and have participated in chats & posts.

I'm still on the fence myself between the technologies... pros & cons for both!

Happy Holidays,
Paul

 

[tanstaaf1]

There is always a major temptation for cash cow owners to get as much milk as possible from their one cow. This can work indefinitely in a monopoly situation (effectively what UPB has had up to now). However, to continue pushing for monopoly milk prices once other cows show up (and are providing "near equivalent" milk at much lower cost) is, generally, making the decision to MINIMIZE your "present value of discounted future cash flow". In other words, it is economically dumb.

UPB is playing a dangerous game here, spending their first mover advantage leadership position for short term margin. If they wait to slash prices and improve their internal competition (by coming up with a strategy to obsolete their existing products as fast as possible -- either by establishing paranoia /"skunk works" within their own company and/or making it possible for other major manufacturers to grab a major/majority share of the manufacturing profit then it is predictable that they will be wiped out as a competitor. Most likely they will be wiped out rather quickly.

If they drag their feet until someone else takes the first spot they will be in deep trouble. If they wait until both Insteon and Zwave (or Zigbee or something else) are ahead of them in market share they will have proven themselves 'too dumb to live'. And it will be all over except the death throes.

The problem that this makes for current professional installers is deciding at what point you want to hedge your bets and become conversant with alternative choices. Do you really want to bet everything on sticking with a company that is so strategically dumb, or overmatched, or non aggressive?

The logic applying to UPB also applies to its installers. If you are forcing clients into higher priced switches either [a] to maximize your markup per switch or because UPB is all you know or are willing to provide then you are proving yourself, also, "too dumb to live" and your decision will be facilitated by the market to its logical conclusion. You shouldn't be making money on switch markup but on overall superiority of delivered endproduct and/or lowest cost. Yes, if you have a substantially higher (and *perceived* higher) value product offering you should be able to command higher prices and survive. But woe on you if the market ever comes to disagree with you and you don't realize in time that the rules have changed.

I am CEO of a company which commands a premium price in a niche consumer market but that does have competitors. I believe I have a pretty good sense of what is at stake here and the forces in play. Unless UPB is moving behind the scenes to take a major offensive in the next few months so as to maintain leadership, I think they are already walking dead. If Zwave and Insteon rollouts continue as expected, I think the critical battles for UPB will be over and decided by June 2006. If UPB is still twiddling its corporate fingers come June, I'd suggest that smart installers run - not walk - toward a different standard.

 

[pkoslow]

tanstaaf1,

I'm in agreement. This is why I'm having a difficult time choosing a lighting product line to offer as I ramp up my HA business over the next 3 months.

I'll probably end up carrying more than one technology, but I'd like to try and standardize on 1 or 2. Profit on sales at the levels I'll be selling will be minimal at best with most revenue coming from the services (billed time).

Right now, we can't really compare apples to apples with Insteon & UPB. Insteon is simply too new and doesn't provide near the funtionality or capability of UPB products. For now, I think this is enough to justify the higher cost.

If Insteon catches on... makes a name for itself, and closes the gap with funtionality then pricing will indeed be out of line between the two products unless something changes.

I guess where I do disagree is I don't think UPB is in as tenuous a position as you project. UPB devices are manufactured by a number of companies and I'm sure they are all paying close attention (maybe even reading this text?). They also have a huge install base outside of the DIY market. If you talk with some of the HA distributors, they will tell you that UPB accounts for 60-70% of the lighting controls they are selling! I may come off sounding "Pro UPB", but I've honestly never even installed any... I'm just like you and trying to determine what the best value is for lighting control.

Times are changing... HA products are being announced so fast, it's hard to keep up. I'm looking forward to what's on the horizon, but also hoping that some of the dust settles soon too.

Happy Holidays,
Paul

 

[tanstaaf1]

tanstaaf1,

I'm in agreement....I guess where I do disagree is I don't think UPB is in as tenuous a position as you project. UPB devices are manufactured by a number of companies

Paul, I agree "it doesn't need to be". Indeed, UPB clearly has leadership as a "good enough" and more mature standard at the moment and corporate history shows that being first in your slot is a huge advantage. However, Smarthome seems to have leadership on marketing and saavy; Zwave may get leadership in switch industry recognition (recognition/acceptance with electricians...distinct from HA experts) once Leviton and others get rolling.

However, regarding UPB being in a "tenuous ... postion", make no mistake. If then bungle the next six months (stand around and do nothing as opposed to beginning immediately to execute as though their corporate life depends on it) and the Insteon & Zwave execute then I think you'll see that their postion is, indeed, tenuous. It is tenuous because the hold they have with HA installers is easy to usurp in an exponetially growing and competitive market. Tenuous can quickly become hopeless.

I think Smarthome is executing a strategic vision with profound depth and passion. This reminds me of Microsoft's 1980's "Windows everywhere" strategy that worked to eclipse all opposing technologies even though the opposition had technology and brand leadership (OS2 was better than early Windows, Unix was mature and known, Apple's Mac was years and years and years ahead in sophisitication (and still is).

 

[tanstaaf1]

What should HAI do with UPB? Some suggestions:

(1) Determine if they have everything they need to compete in a no-holds barred competition with Smarthome, in particular. Do they have major financial strength, passion, technical knowledge, marketing/design experience, and manufacturing capability? Based on their execution to date, they do not appear to have a stellar postion in anything other than technical knowledge. If they are significantly weak in any area they need to acquire the missing ingredients immediately. Since they appear to have already bungled their time to market advantage, they have no time to now acquire the missing ingredients: I expect they should look to sell out to or closely partner with a much more savvy corporation.

The HAI CEO must be terminated as incompetent to lead this battle UNLESS he is so savvy that he has actually been executing with excellence but in secret for over a year and is, in fact, poised to launch a carefully crafted Blitzkrieg within the next few weeks.

(2) Drop the price of the current crop of UPB switches to roughly match the ICON price point of $19.99 retail ($25.99 would likely work for now, with a possible later drop to $19.99 or less, given the platform maturity advantage). Replace the high end / installer market with smaller, more stylish, more functional (and hopefully more quiet) ones at prices to compete in marketing with Switchlinc V2 and whatever Leviton and others might be preparing to bring to market.

(3) UPBs greatest advantage is platform maturity evidenced in custom installer base and drivers for the various 3rd party HA controllers. This advantage needs to be maximized and extended. I suggest: [a] writing and giving away drivers for any remaining HA controllers that have not yet implemented UPB native support. holding "free" seminars to train and establish installers (professional, DIY, don't be too picky) using UPB.

(4) Get major competition going for UPB manufacturing. HAI has at least one 3rd tier manufacturer providing an alternative to HAI's own switches, but the alternative has already established a clear reputation for being a poor choice (I can't remember the name of the alternative but I've been advised repeatedly to stay away from them). Forget about this loser and get someone like Leviton to commit completely to your technology and drive price-points down and innovation & quality up.

(5) UPB is especially vulnerable because it is while it currently leads in the "alternative" camp, it does not really have an enduring hold on a niche. [a] High end markets are owned by Lutron/Crestron. So, UPB is really already in #2 position in terms of perceived value (homes for the Lexus/Mercedes/BMW/Porche buyers). If both Zwave and Insteon get ahead of it then UPB with be, at best, FOURTH. As Jack Welch of GE fame established, if you cannot be #1, #2, or #3 in your niche then you probably ought to quit; There is a huge drop in brand value as you decend even one step on the hierarchy. UPB is going to come in 3rd place (4th counting Lutron) in terms of latency. [c] UPB might try to making "buzz" trendy, but otherwise the loud buzzing is a negative which also puts them in last place in terms of quiet [d] RF may not be best for everything, but it definitely is leagues ahead in terms of convenience of sensor locations and for mobility. This IS the future and UPB is not even a player. So, UPB is 4th here as well. What to do? Well...

(6) Develop and deploy a wireless adjunct technology ASAP. If UPB doesn't fill this gaping hole they will bleed to death in time even if they master all the other weaknesses of their postion.

Anyway, while it may seem arrogant for me to voice my opinions on this matter, especially so assertively, I think I am correct. It was thinking such as this that led me to NOT buy UPB switches for my new project even though, at the moment, UPB is the clear leader and is fully supported on my already purchased Stargate system. (btw, I'd say Stargate is already in the "walking dead" camp since JDS appears to have tried to milk its X10 cash cow for too long with minimal reinvestment (they are coming out with the "new" panel this month, but it is hardly new at all in any significant respect ... and still offers no Zwave or Insteon on-board support...and they don't even seem to have allowed for easy addition of drivers for these and other standards in the future.)