Insteon questions

Wow, I wouldn't quite say arrogant but a rather strong opinion at the least. Just wanted to make a few points you may not be aware of. First, at least IMO, HAI is not the leader in UPB, they were in fact last to enter that market. Pulseworx/PCS was the inventor of the protocol and making switches the longest. They have traditionally been overpriced and fairly recently lowered prices to other UPB levels. Simply Automated (SAI) is IMO the leading company right now in UPB. They have been around a while, have at least second generation switches out now and working on next generation. They have just come out with some new products as well. HAI IMO opnion is dead last in UPB technology. Their switches are loud and clunky and don't have the polish of others. SAI is also the only ones with interchangeable faceplates right now.

I also don't think UPB will ever bring RF in the fold, there is no reason to. If you want a pure RF solution, go with Zwave. I don't think they will die without RF.

You certainly have given this a lot of thought and made your choices accordingly. I don't happen to agree but only time will tell. We'll all find out together next year.
 
Steve said:
Wow, I wouldn't quite say arrogant but a rather strong opinion at the least. Just wanted to make a few points you may not be aware of. First, at least IMO, HAI is not the leader in UPB, they were in fact last to enter that market. Pulseworx/PCS was the inventor of the protocol and making switches the longest. They have traditionally been overpriced and fairly recently lowered prices to other UPB levels. Simply Automated (SAI) is IMO the leading company right....

I also don't think UPB will ever bring RF in the fold, there is no reason to. If you want a pure RF solution, go with Zwave. I don't think they will die without RF.

You certainly have given this a lot of thought and made your choices accordingly. I don't happen to agree but only time will tell. We'll all find out together next year.
Well, if I'm wrong I want there to be no doubt about it! ;-)

I'm obviously wrong about what CEO needs to be held to account if the UPB standard doesn't put up a good fight! (Thanks for correcting me)

I've thought a lot about the answers and links to more information I've received on this thread and my opinion has shifted somewhat. Learning that Insteon had a latency of, as I recall, only 0.04 seconds - in league with Zwave even though Insteon is primarily a power line protocol - brought me around to the camp that 100% wireless doesn't have any apparent advantage, and may have more problems, compared to powerline with some means to support wireless. If Insteon can robustlyhandle wireless transmitters with only a couple of its SignalLinc RF units then more power to them. I want to be clear that what I was advocating for UPB, as part of its strategy for the future, isn't necessarily some sort of "UPB wireless" but, rather, ANY means of robustly bringing the input from lowcost wireless transmitters into the communication channel. I explained what I think UPB only systems will be leaving behind in terms of functionality if this isn't somehow incorporated. The lack of wireless for certain applications (such as tracking my movement through the house) was part of what discouraged me about UPB (and may yet turn out to discourage me about Insteon or Zwave if either turns out not to facilitate roaming and triangulation without extensive additional hardware).

Anyway, I have thought about it -- probably too much ;-) -- and at this point I've ordered a goodly amount of Insteon stuff to get me started. Hopefully, my enthusiam will grow after I receive my first shipment. Hopefully, also, I remain openminded, able, and curious enough to try the other switch protocols in the future ... and to change my mind publicly, or otherwise admit I was wrong, as I learn more. 2006 should be a heck of a year for HA and I think I'm getting involved in this upcoming area with near perfect timing (I've little X10 luggage outside Stargate and yet I'm soon enough to still be a reasonably early adopter).

Hey, Merry X10-mas to All!

transmittedlearned a lot since I asked my first question on this thread and
 
My 2 cents. (Hey, everybody else has got theirs so far..)

UPB is nice, safe conservative and frankly boring. That's not a bad thing though, but its not going to appeal to the folks who buy X10 switches. There is no "zing!" to justify the price premium. Smarthome is positioning insteon (via Icon) to blow X10 right out of the water. If they succeed in getting the $20 icon switches into the entire Home Depot chain after the trial run, that is really going to make waves.

UPB is nice for installers to "sell" a product with decent margins. But if smarthome doesn't screw up and shoot itself in the foot and PCS/SA/HAI don't take enough countermeasures, Insteon could easily outsell UPB by 100 to 1, or even 1000 to 1. Insteon is currently sitting in a very good position to become "the" X10 replacement. X10.com may have to take down the "X10 is THE standard for home automation" off their web site.

UPB is a fully open programming spec and really easy to develop for (on any platform!) but that depends on people finding it interesting to develop for. Insteon's programming specs are trivially easy to get, and almost open. Again, they work on any platform. Add the price difference and the fact that you can get backwards compat X10 for free along with Insteon and it suddenly becomes rather interesting to develop for. (And a pox on Zwave for keeping their specs locked down!)

If smarthome can manage to establish themselves as the ubiquitous standard device, then it will be very hard for UPB/Zwave/etc to compete against the critical mass. It isn't hard to forsee some point when new products are launched with native support for Insteon first, X10 second, and maybe UPB/Zwave/etc at some point later via patches, add-ons and plugins. And that turn of events will make it a tougher sell for Installers to sell their premium or niche devices. Sure, that doesn't negate the reasons to use UPB, but it's going to be tougher to sell when the customers have heard of Insteon as the replacement for X10 but have not heard of UPB orZwave.

All it takes is something like the Windows Media Center to pick up some basic HA support out of the box and use X10 or Insteon and suddenly its on the radar of a group of people many thousands of times larger than the current potential market.

It doesn't matter if UPB is better. What will matter is that UPB switches are noisy compared to silent Insteon switches (at least my SA and HAI ones are distressingly noisy, as is the PIM) and UPB keypads and controllers are seriously ugly. What will matter is that Windows MCE will be able to talk to X10 and or Insteon without having to run an external custom tool like UPStart.

And then there's the nagging gotchas and missing features that turn up with UPB. There is still no active phase coupler/repeater that mortals can buy. And the annoying switch latency in 'snap' mode where it takes about 1/3 of a second to turn the local load on or off. Or that the nice SA switch bodies don't fit in the older style (non metal, non plastic, some sort of composite material) J-boxes with the thick screw posts. Or that SA don't make relay wall switches. Or that running other manufacturers dimmers in the 20%-30% range can utterly destroy your UPB network (I assume the triac firing at around that point on the sine wave causes interference for the UPB signal). Or other triac based variable heat devices. I've yet to find anything that interferes with Insteon, apart from boosterlincs. My washing machine with its electronic controlled variable speed synchronous motor drive system (stepper motor) totally wiped out X10, but doesn't seem to hurt Insteon. My 60KHz aquarium lighting ballasts wipe out X10, but not Insteon.

But Insteon is far from perfect. The ApplianceLincV2 has serious problems controlling fluroescent lights. SwitchlincV2.0's (not v2.1 or v2.2) seem to have a 'sudden death' problem. I've lost count of the revisions of the PLCv2, and I've heard that the LamplincV2's are now all the way up to v2.6 (from v2.0.. if at first it doesn't work, try, try, try, try, try and try again?).

Anyway, that's all pie-in-the-sky stuff. Smarthome could still shoot itself in the foot. The UPB folks might pull a rabbit out of the hat and produce cheap, quiet switches (no buzzing, both relay and dimmer versions) that fit in all J-boxes including the older ones with thick screw posts. Zwave might suddenly see the light and open up the specs. X10 could even shock us all and magically pull X10plus out of the hat and eat everybody's lunch. But the UPB, X10 and Zwave folks can't help but notice those menacing torpedos streaking in their general direction. Smarthome have seriously raised the stakes.

Anyway, back to earth again..

Insteon and RF.. Insteon under-uses RF right now. I think smarthome are too busy to even think about it yet. They've always said it is for things like the X10 style key-fob remotes and wireless devices like motion detectors etc. Among other things. I suspect they're kinda hoping that somebody else will make the devices so they don't have to split their attention even more. They're already obviously struggling with the core infrastructure devices, let alone other fruit.

It isn't hard to imagine a microcontroller and some support glue to embed Insteon in things. They've talked about this sort of thing right from the start and that makes things real interesting. Imagine if garage door openers start embedding Insteon inside (yeah, right! they make too much money replacing lost "proprietary" remote openers!) or if your sprinkler systems get Insteon onboard at some point. Or your automated blinds/drapes come with Insteon-RF onboard. Oh wait, somfy have already announced that they are taking the first steps on this.. Or the application in their original press release announcement.. having a washing machine or dish washer send an insteon event when a cycle is finished so that you HA system can announce it for you.

I for one would die for a simple Insteon-RF controlled "relay". I can imagine no end of applications for a low-voltage Insteon-RF transciever running on 12V or 24V circuits to control relays. Skip the PLC interface and the costs of high voltage interfacing and do a simple low voltage RF transciever that drives a small 1A or 5A relay. Or a cheap contact sensor. You get the idea. (I've switched several of my aquarium systems from UPB Appliance module + 24VAC transformer + relay or solenoid to using a remote http://ontrak.net I/O module. But that means long wiring runs from central points. I'd love to have a 24V chain of devices with a transciever at each actual node.)

Anyway, UPB doesn't have any apparent RF ambitions. If you want to integrate RF keypads or remotes into an UPB system, you have to use a second technology. You get integrated RF with Insteon. You can stick as many signalinc-RF's around as you want in order to get the best coverage and when RF remotes etc finally appear, you get automatic support for them without a second system.

RFID is cool etc but it is still a second system. And it doesn't have remotes with buttons. I'd find an RFID presense based system a bit creepy. And I still want to be press a remote control button to override the automatic blinds if I want to. (I tracked my bluetooth phone for a while but found I kept leaving it downstairs.. with my car keys. So an RFID tag on my keys wouldn't work either..)

On a complete side track, we generally don't ever lock our house. Actually, I think we once locked our front door when we went on a holiday out of the country. But the back and side doors were open for the neighbors who were feeding my fish while we were away. I know several of our neighbors do the same.
 
It isn't hard to imagine a microcontroller and some support glue to embed Insteon in things. They've talked about this sort of thing right from the start and that makes things real interesting. Imagine if garage door openers start embedding Insteon inside (yeah, right! they make too much money replacing lost "proprietary" remote openers!)

Hmmm, interesting. Does that mean we would start seeing this?

insteoninside1.jpg
 
PeterW said:
My 2 cents. (Hey, everybody else has got theirs so far..)

UPB is nice, safe conservative and frankly boring. ...
I enjoyed the read and I'm encouraged that you are finding Insteon pretty hardy. I'm expecting my first order of Insteon switches (about $500 worth) probably later this week. I obviously do think the lack of RF in the UPB spec is going to be a more apparent problem as the reach and applicable scope of shrinking wireless controls, sensors, relays, etc. spreads. Most of the extensive hard-wiring of control and sensor lines that is currently being advocated is likely going to become obsolescent pretty quickly. I made the decision to put wireless motion detectors everywhere a year ago and although they are doubtless "old" technology (not zwave or insteon) they work extremely well and the batteries are holding up just fine; I'm not sure how hardwiring them would have been better...just a lot more costly and destructive of doorframes, etc.
 
I use my X10 RF remotes & sensors with UPB, without using a PC, so it's a pretty solid setup. Something like the UPB version of the WGL V572 would probably be the cheapest solution if you don't mind the X10 remotes. I guess the UPB/RF question is something that should have been asked during our last chat with SAI (if it hasn't been that is, I'll have to check the transcript again).
 
tanstaaf1 said:
I'm not sure how hardwiring them would have been better...
The most important reason is compatibility. If you decide to upgrade your system in the future, hardwire is the most common and compatible architecture to find.

Second, security. More complex devices including batteries and RF radio have more probaility of faliure (even if they have not failed yet). Some people might care about the potential of RF interference/blocking (it's too easy, but improbable with common burglars).

And third and more arguable is cost. If your house ir already hardwired, or is easy to do, or you do it yourself (and every penny counts) then it might be cheaper to use simple hardwire sensors (specially for the door/window switches).
 
Steve said:
They are both virtually instant and probably (not enuff time on Insteon yet) very reliable.
I stumbled on this thread as I was doing some research on UPB. I currently have more than $2500 invested in Insteon and will soon be replacing my 8TH dead Switchlinc V2. Now in all fairness, most of them are the 1st generation REV 2.0's which are known to have this problem.

It's my fault for buying so many of them back in August when they were released, but it doesn't change the fact that I have to replace them. And the physical replacement is not that big of an issue. It is the relinking of them, mainly the Keypads, that is such a PITA. SH needs to get some linking software out fast.

Is anyone else seeing a failure rate of approximately 30% on REV 2.0 Switchlincs. All the other components (relays, keypads) are doing just fine.
 
Herdfan said:
Steve said:
They are both virtually instant and probably (not enuff time on Insteon yet) very reliable.
I stumbled on this thread as I was doing some research on UPB. I currently have more than $2500 invested in Insteon and will soon be replacing my 8TH dead Switchlinc V2. Now in all fairness, most of them are the 1st generation REV 2.0's which are known to have this problem.

It's my fault for buying so many of them back in August when they were released, but it doesn't change the fact that I have to replace them. And the physical replacement is not that big of an issue. It is the relinking of them, mainly the Keypads, that is such a PITA. SH needs to get some linking software out fast.

Is anyone else seeing a failure rate of approximately 30% on REV 2.0 Switchlincs. All the other components (relays, keypads) are doing just fine.
Hmm. Coincidentally, I was just about to post a quick comment that one of my 5 ICON relay switches appears to have already gone to switch heaven. Day before yesterday I tried it flip it on and if "buzzed" and paused maybe 3 seconds before going on. I turned it off. I turned it back on and it "buzzed" again and slowly went on ... then the light went out. No pulse detected since then.

I was hoping my experience didn't mean I could expect a 20% failure rate, but you're indicating maybe I can?
 
Hmm. I don't have much installed yet but here is my record:

7 Switchlincs (2 relays, 5 dimmers)
2 LampLincs
2 SignalLincs
1 ControlLinc
2 Icon Relays

I have a few more that I haven't installed yet.

Of that, I have returned one switchlinc dimmer (DOA) and am in the process of returning an Icon switch due to a stuck paddle. I think I only started getting these when they dropped the prices if that helps for timing.

So dropping the LampLincs and SignalLincs, that is 2 out of 9, which happens to be 22%...

At least there is not an issue returning them.

Now if they offerred a credit for V1 switchlincs, even if it was a relatively small one, I'd feel better (but considering what they are going for now, it would probably be for about $1.50 :)).
 
Mike said:
Now if they offerred a credit for V1 switchlincs, even if it was a relatively small one, I'd feel better (but considering what they are going for now, it would probably be for about $1.50 :)).
Gads. Glad I wasn't one of the *earliest* adopters. What's the diff between v1 & v2 [besides current value]?

Do you think I need to worry they'll announce "v3" in March? :blink:
 
Switchlinc v1s are x10 protocol only switches, which have been around in various incarnations for a few years. Switchlinc v2s are fairly new, dual protocol, Insteon plus x10 switches. You might see a v3 in 2015 or '20, when they develop a successor that can also be controlled telepathically...

As for receiving "credit" for older x10 switches, there's always ebay. Older Switchlincs can probably still fetch $10 for sale by owner.
 
Hmm, maybe that would work. I figured they would not be worth much, seems smarthome is slashing the prices on the new ones, so why would someone buy used on ebay.

I'll be happy enough if everything works as expected, is as reliable as stated, and can be controlled with the elk and other software.

My second serial expander and serial insteon interface were ordered today in preparation for the Elk support...
 
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