Insteon Switches in an Unheated Garage? A Bad Idea?

[PLCGuy]

Thanks to a major home renovation, I am sticking my nose into HA for the first time in a few decades. Now while I know a fair amount about industrial automation (I am an industrial controls engineer and P.E.), the products used in HA have me a bit puzzled.

For a bit of background, I am building an unheated garage about 50 feet from the house. I would like to be able to control the various garage lights (four circuits) and garage door from both the house and the garage. The electrician tells me to run 3-way circuits and be done with it, but I thought I would try a shot at HA. I figure something like 5 Insteon switches in the garage and a Insteon Keypad in the house as a “garage control center” seems like a nice way to start. Eventually I could put in a controller like the ISY-99 and start to do timed control, etc. but for now I would be happy if the above was a reliable solution.

Unfortunately, as I read the Smarthome manuals and the various product reviews, I am beginning to have a few concerns and questions:

1. Will the above work reliably? My wife will kill me if this design doesn’t work 100% of the time when we could have used 3-way switches (those do work 100% of the time).
   
2. The Smarthome manuals for all the switch products I can find state that they have an operating range of 32° to 104° F (0° to 40° C). This garage is unheated and I live in the Pacific North West where it does get below 32° F for a few weeks per year. Does this rule out all Insteon product s? Are there other products designed for more rugged use? Maybe zWave or other Insteon manufacturers?
   
3. Smarthome seems to have a reputation for reliability that is less than stellar. Even some of the positive reviewers on their site note that switches need to be replaced after 5 years. Is this for real? I need this to work for 20 years not 5 years. Are there more “industrial grade” product available, even if they cost more?
   
4. What does one do for backup if the Insteon control system fails? Is there any way force a circuit on? Or do I head to the garage and jumper all the lights on?

I would be tempted to just buy a small Schneider, Rockwell or Siemens PLC and be done with it, as I know what these are capable of and how long they last. But PLC integrated light switches seem like a long shot, so I am curious to learn something new and try HA products. All suggestion on how to make this a reliable system are greatly appreciated.

 

[tmbrown97]

I'll see what I can answer. Though I'm not an Insteon user, I've been watching these boards daily for about 6 years. What I've learned is - insteon had some early quality issues, but people over the last 2-3 years are perfectly happy with the product.

Your distances don't seem like a problem, but that said, run the 3-way wiring just in case. Even if you don't use it right off the bat, you'll have the option should something go wrong.

In the Pacific Northwest, I don't think you have anything to worry about; these switches will create enough heat in the box to keep themselves warm and comfortable during the occasional temperature drops.

 

[gatchel]

Unheated Garage here also....

1. I have insteon devices in a detached garage with about 65 feet of 2-2-2-4 aluminum feeder. No issues in 2 years of operation.

2. If you go outside of the temperature range with anything, sure anything is possible. I haven't had any problems as of yet.

3. I have also had a few items fail but they were replaced under warranty. I would hope that by now they have most of the early adopter issues fixed.

4. Jumpering out the lights is one option. Installing temporary switches is another. To me, depending on your HMI abilities, a PLC would have a lower WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) but would let you have unlimited control possibilities. You could use 2 PLC's and connect them together and have a bang of traditional switches in the house into the house PLC inputs and have the data sent to the garage PLC to trip outputs to relays to control the lighting.


Also, stay here for your HA needs but make sure you visit garagejournal.com. The forums there are very informational. Also make sure you run at least 3 or 4 conduits to the garage. You won't regret having the extra pipe.

 

[wuench]

I have insteon switchlincs in an unheated garage and have had no issues so far. Has only been a year though but both low and high temperatures have exceeded those specs. I don't see why any electronics would not work below freezing, heat on the other hand can reduce MTBF, so they may die early it we keep seeing summers like this last one, we'll see.

 

[apostolakisl]

I have Insteon switches in my garage as well. Heat is more of an issue here with summer temps going up above 100 regularly. Winters are pretty mild rarely dropping below 25. The garage is attached so it doesn't get that cold either, but it still gets hot. The switches are now 3 years installed without issue.

 

[PLCGuy]

Thanks for all the feedback. Anyone know if Zwave or UPB products have wider temperature ranges or better MTBF ratings? I'll go for whatever product and technology gives me the best reliability. What about Crestron?

FYI on my thoughts why not to use a PLC: The thought of homerunning low voltage wiring from light switches back to the PLC is less than great. The garage is relatively easy, but ultimately I would like to do other parts of the house (if this passes the WAF test). Thus the attractiveness of something like X10, USB Insteon or Zwave that creates a I/O bus over existing home wiring. PLCs have industrial buses like ASi and Devicenet, but they don't work over home wiring and they don't come with Decora covers ^_^

 

[jaymartin]

I don't have any INSTEON switches in the garage but do have an IO Linc for the garage door. Been fine for 3+ years (I also live in Austin as Lou does so heat is more of an issue). It did survive a super cold snap where we had a high of 20° for about 3 days in a row a couple of years ago and it worked fine. It is an attached garage though so it probably didn't get as cold as your detached garage might.

As for a solution that will last 20+ years - I don't think you'll find ANY HA electronics that will last that long. INSTEON has gotten much more reliable in recent years and when there's a problem they usually step up and deal with it - but that's just my experience.

If it were me, I'd go ahead and have them install the 3-way wiring. If you find that there's an issue using INSTEON (or other HA technology) then you have a fallback plan.

 

[jaymartin]

FYI on my thoughts why not to use a PLC: The thought of homerunning low voltage wiring from light switches back to the PLC is less than great. The garage is relatively easy, but ultimately I would like to do other parts of the house (if this passes the WAF test). Thus the attractiveness of something like X10, USB Insteon or Zwave that creates a I/O bus over existing home wiring. PLCs have industrial buses like ASi and Devicenet, but they don't work over home wiring and they don't come with Decora covers ^_^

FYI, Z-Wave is completely an RF-based technology so it doesn't use the power lines for signaling. In fact, that can be it's greatest strength - no power line signal noise issues which effect the other technologies. Of course, it's got it's own set of issues like RF interference, routing issues, etc. Above all, though, don't do X10...

 

[tmbrown97]

You can tell from my signature that I'm a UPB person; I've been using Simply Automated switches for 6 years now without a single failure, and that includes one of the outlets outside, a few switches in my garage (which gets very hot), and an appliance module inside my LV lighting transformer box out in the yard. Added benefit - I can't remember the last time a light bulb burned out thanks to the soft start/stop!

 

[MikeB]

I have an attached garage, but unheated and it does get pretty cold here in Massachusetts. No issues with my SwitchLincs, KeypadLincs or TriggerLincs out there. Also have an OutletLinc in an outside weatherproof outlet box without issue. Also use Outdoor ApplianceLincs outside in the winter to control my Xmas decorations without problem.

Keep in mind the fact that you are out of spec, but if there are issues running them in cold temps I sure don't see it.

 

[MikeB]

Added benefit - I can't remember the last time a light bulb burned out thanks to the soft start/stop!

I concur! Pretty much all my lights start up with .5 second ramp rates and go to 90% brightness. I rarely ever have to replace a bulb in my home!

 

[Teken]

I would affirm what others have said about wiring the garage for 3 way. Also, I have been using Insteon for almost three years and the garage has four devices which must sustain -45'C for seven months of the year.

So far nothing has failed in the garage.

Also, you will notice that many of the newer offerings will be dual band where it incorporates both RF & Powerline communications. Key things with Insteon is first proper coupling of both service feeds. Next, is to ensure any and all signal suckers / noise makers are identified and filtered accordingly.

With that being said it goes with out saying: Selecting the correct switch is paramount. There are endless stories of people trying to use a dimmer switch on a load that requires a relay style switch. These same people wonder why odd things happen, or even worse things start to die or get damaged.

Know the load and prepare in advance to use the right switches whether it be dimmer / relay style. The last part is paramount and that is to know and realize that all of the newer style dual band switches require a lot of extra room. Purchase the deepest JBOX you can find to ensure pushing in all of that wire will fit!

Last but not least: Ensure the load is in the correct on / off state when you begin to program / link them. Otherwise, you will be banging your head on the wall thinking these devices are broken. When in fact you simply programmed them in the *OFF State*

Teken . . .

 

[PLCGuy]

I concur! Pretty much all my lights start up with .5 second ramp rates and go to 90% brightness. I rarely ever have to replace a bulb in my home!

<snip> No issues with my SwitchLincs, KeypadLincs or TriggerLincs out there. Also have an OutletLinc in an outside weatherproof outlet box without issue. Also use Outdoor ApplianceLincs outside in the winter to control my Xmas decorations without problem. <snip>

This great stuff - Thanks to everyone that has replied. For me this has been a good lesson; just because you can automation something like paper machine, doesn't mean you know how to do HA.

For example, the soft-starts of lights - first I never thought of this possibility. And doing something like a motor soft-start in a PLC would be unusual - I would just use a soft-starter and a 120 VDC Out from the PLC to trigger it. Now if I understand it correctly, in HA you build the soft start logic into the controller logic? Or is it in the switches? And can you only soft start incandescent lights/ (I assume so).

And all these device names - SwitchLincs, KeypadLincs, TriggerLincs, OutletLinc, ApplianceLincs&hellip;It is worse than selecting the right industrial temperator sensor . Is there a summary of all these devices and what their correct application is? Digging around on the Smarthome site makes this less than clear.

Even better, are there any general design guidelines or control strategy guidelines available for HA. I don&rsquo;t mean programming guides, but rather something that says &ldquo;this is the correct way to design a system for outdoor light management&rdquo; or &ldquo;this is how to design in redundancy into a critical lighting circuit&rdquo;. Todd B&rsquo;s &ldquo;Automating your home with UPB&rdquo; article in the Guides section is the sort of thing I mean. Lots of good design guidance.

Any pointers are greatly appreciated.

 

[Teken]

This is the comparison guide for the switches: http://www.smarthome.com/compare_chart_INSTEON_wall_switches.html There isn't so much of a guide line as there is progression. Most folks start off with a few wall warts, switches, and maybe a few sensors. What many progress into is purchasing is a HA controller.

If you're planning to stay with Insteon for the long term than purchasing a UDI ISY- Series controller is one of the best things you can ever do, or plan for.

Once you get the bones of your system in place. You will progress into wanting some logic, time of use, or variables to control and automate your HA system.

The ISY controller will allow you to program and react to key elements of the environment and also offer you the ability to control the system remotely. Consider saving up for the ISY controller and know you're on a great path for present, and future expansions.

Teken . . .

 

[apostolakisl]

It's not that complicated. Just realize the suffix "linc" is the Insteon trademark and the first part of the word pretty much tells you what it is.

Switchlinc = a switch (dimmer and relay models available)
Keypadlinc (KPL)= a keypad (6 or 8 buttons)
Outletlinc = wall outlet
Appliancelinc = wall wart for plugging in an appliance
Lamplinc = wall wart for pluggin in a lamp
Triggerlinc = more complex. . . read there website
Togglelinc = same as switchlinc but uses the non-decora style switch
Inlinelinc = goes in-line with the load and deosn't have a switch at all. A bit o a specialty item.
I/Olinc = for controlling input/output stuff . . .basically relays and voltage sensors
Fanlinc = for controlling a multispead fan along with its light.