IR distribution questions

[swaggy]

I am trying to put all my source equipment (like many of us) into a single wiring closet in the basement. There are so many IR distribution options out there that, frankly, I am a bit overwhelmed. I think I understand that I need something like a Xantech distribution block (79520) with IR receivers in every room (I prefer the in-wall J-box style).

My questions are:

1) Is cat5e or cat6 sufficient for this? Xantech's website says you can go up to 200 feet with 24gauge conductors.
2) Are there any issues with specific source equipment? (for example, HDMI over cat5/6 baluns does not work very well...any similar problems with IR over cat5/6?)
3) How do I control Xbox? AFAIK, their wireless controllers are RF and not IR.
4) How do I tie all this into my OmniPro panel for some automation (for example, turn off unused equipment at night if someone forgets to turn it off)? Do I need something like a GC-100?

Today we use a Harmony IR remote (not RF capable - but willing upgrade if it solves some of the problems) so I would prefer the user interface to remain the same. Appreciate any pointers/feedback on this.

Thanks

[EDIT] Forgot to mention that I will have cable box, blu ray player, receiver, xbox, mythtv frontend, Nuvo E6G in the wiring closet
[/EDIT]

 

[signal15]

I like the Global Cache stuff from what I've seen. But, the limitation on the GC-100 is only a single connection at a time. So if you have multiple phones/tablets in the house running software that controls it, you're going to run into problems. Global Cache does have some other products that support multiple concurrent connections, but none of them seem to be rackmount or have the same IR port density as the GC-100. I'm going to email them and ask them if this will be changed.

You probably could use SOCAT to spawn a single connection to the GC-100 and then do multiple connections to the box running socat to be able to get your multiple connections. If someone wants to get me a GC-100, I can test and whack instructions together.

 

[swaggy]

I like the Global Cache stuff from what I've seen. But, the limitation on the GC-100 is only a single connection at a time. So if you have multiple phones/tablets in the house running software that controls it, you're going to run into problems. Global Cache does have some other products that support multiple concurrent connections, but none of them seem to be rackmount or have the same IR port density as the GC-100. I'm going to email them and ask them if this will be changed.

You probably could use SOCAT to spawn a single connection to the GC-100 and then do multiple connections to the box running socat to be able to get your multiple connections. If someone wants to get me a GC-100, I can test and whack instructions together.

If I understand correctly, the GC-100 still requires a computer to send commands to it right? I don't think the OmniPro II can talk directly to the GC-100.

 

[fabriziojoe]

I am trying to put all my source equipment (like many of us) into a single wiring closet in the basement. There are so many IR distribution options out there that, frankly, I am a bit overwhelmed. I think I understand that I need something like a Xantech distribution block (79520) with IR receivers in every room (I prefer the in-wall J-box style).

My questions are:

1) Is cat5e or cat6 sufficient for this? Xantech's website says you can go up to 200 feet with 24gauge conductors.
2) Are there any issues with specific source equipment? (for example, HDMI over cat5/6 baluns does not work very well...any similar problems with IR over cat5/6?)
3) How do I control Xbox? AFAIK, their wireless controllers are RF and not IR.
4) How do I tie all this into my OmniPro panel for some automation (for example, turn off unused equipment at night if someone forgets to turn it off)? Do I need something like a GC-100?

Today we use a Harmony IR remote (not RF capable - but willing upgrade if it solves some of the problems) so I would prefer the user interface to remain the same. Appreciate any pointers/feedback on this.

Thanks

[EDIT] Forgot to mention that I will have cable box, blu ray player, receiver, xbox, mythtv frontend, Nuvo E6G in the wiring closet
[/EDIT]

1) I have used category cable in the past and have not had any problems so you should be ok.
3) I would probably step up to a URC or something along those lines that is rf based.
4) You could use a panamax with the bluebolt module to kill all loads. Or have a relay that controls an outlet or a switched outlet that is controllable.

 

[jlegault]

I am trying to put all my source equipment (like many of us) into a single wiring closet in the basement. There are so many IR distribution options out there that, frankly, I am a bit overwhelmed. I think I understand that I need something like a Xantech distribution block (79520) with IR receivers in every room (I prefer the in-wall J-box style).

My questions are:

1) Is cat5e or cat6 sufficient for this? Xantech's website says you can go up to 200 feet with 24gauge conductors.
2) Are there any issues with specific source equipment? (for example, HDMI over cat5/6 baluns does not work very well...any similar problems with IR over cat5/6?)
3) How do I control Xbox? AFAIK, their wireless controllers are RF and not IR.
4) How do I tie all this into my OmniPro panel for some automation (for example, turn off unused equipment at night if someone forgets to turn it off)? Do I need something like a GC-100?

Today we use a Harmony IR remote (not RF capable - but willing upgrade if it solves some of the problems) so I would prefer the user interface to remain the same. Appreciate any pointers/feedback on this.

Thanks

[EDIT] Forgot to mention that I will have cable box, blu ray player, receiver, xbox, mythtv frontend, Nuvo E6G in the wiring closet
[/EDIT]

I have a similar setup.

- All equipment except for a couple PS3s and an Xbox are in a central closet. Everything happens in the closet, including HD switching and distribution.
- All the zone switching and source distribution heavy lifting is done by 3 receivers (Yamaha with 3 zones, Integra with 3 zones, and a Marantz with 1 zone), an HDMI matrix, and some amplified RCA/Coax/Optical distribution buses
- I ran 3 runs of HDMI from bluejean cables to the home theater room and the main family room. There is a local PS3 in these rooms for playing games, and an HDTV/Projector/surround sound setup.
- Among other CAT5 runs, I ran a dedicated CAT5 cable to every room that required an IR receiver, my original design called for an IR receiver in most rooms.

IR Design #1:
- Xantech system. I started with the 4-zone 79520 unit connected to 9 IR receivers over CAT5. I didn't end up using the zoned capability, so I dropped back to a 79144 with a CB12 wiring block. The unit you pick really depends only on two things. 1) Do you need zones? Probably not unless you are using many of the same piece of equipment. 2) How many transmitters do you need? They make units that have two emitters per connection, so with a 79144 you can get 20 IR emitters, and expand to get another 20 if you need it. You will need their biggest power supply if you are going to have a lot of receivers and transmitters.
- All receivers are connected to the connecting block using only 3 conductors in the CAT5 line. I could use more, but 3 works fine. Probably several hundred feet in total CAT5 distance.
- I bought 10 Pronto TSU2000s to act as the IR "automation" brain.
- The Pronto program I put together requires that you pick a room before you start running IR macros, so the solution scaled pretty well over the last 10 years. It could "locally" control the TV in the room, so I did not have to run an emitter from the closet to the TVs or Projector.
- IR noise was an issue in the room with the Plasma TV, so I had to buy a fancy receiver designed to work with Plasma TVs (ug..not a cheap component)
- All in all, rock solid for 10 years. The Xantech stuff is indestructible.

IR Design #2:
- Same Xantech system as #1, but I no longer need it for the receivers in each room. I am moving to a series of iPad remotes over wifi, so I don't need a receiver in each room anymore. My goal was to create a totally integrated user experience that includes lighting, IR control, alarm, sprinklers, HVAC, Pool, Etc. I am doing this with HomeSeer and HSTouch.
- Since I could no longer use the universal remote's IR output to control the local components in each room, I used the same connecting blocks that the receivers plugged into to run an IR emitter to the TV/Game console. Alternatively you could put an Ethernet->IR or Wifi->IR box at each TV.
- After a lot of heart burn over getting stuck in the middle of Bitwise's recent decision to drop out of the DIY market, I ended up sticking with a Bitwise BC4X. It is superior solution in every way, plus you can still get hardware from HAI, so I bought a spare. Globalcache is an option, but the integration with HomeSeer is painful/eye-stabbingly tedious.


To answers your questions directly:

1) Cat5/5e/6 is sufficient. I would go with Cat6 if cost is no object.
2) If you go Xantech, everything will be rock solid. No issues with using Cat5.
3) XBox uses IR for their theater remote (buy it), so no issues there. For a PS3 you will need a USB IR dongle, or a Blutooth to IR converter.
4) HAI has their own IR controller, called the Home Theater Extender (HTX), which is a Bitwise BCX4 (don't tell anyone). You will need their 5.7 software along with their automation studio to allow the omnipro to trigger an IR macro (http://www.worthingtondistribution.com/cgi-bin/solutions/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1277690443/5)

 

[Ranger Digital]

Scrimp, scratch, steal or whatever it takes to RID YOURSELF of IR! It blows. Macros suck, pointing sucks, blah blah blah. We instated a NO IR policy and refuse to use it. RF is so superior its not a competition. After multiple service calls on IR customers, RF solved EVERY problem. Some macros can take 15 seconds plus to execute, the customers wont hold the remote in the "right" spot for that long thus a call complaining it doesnt work when in fact its the cheap customer that wasnt working.

Do yourself a favor and remove IR from your though process. You will never look back and often pat yourself on the back for making the right decision.

IR=more headaches that RF simply solves.

 

[sic0048]

Scrimp, scratch, steal or whatever it takes to RID YOURSELF of IR! It blows. Macros suck, pointing sucks, blah blah blah. We instated a NO IR policy and refuse to use it. RF is so superior its not a competition. After multiple service calls on IR customers, RF solved EVERY problem. Some macros can take 15 seconds plus to execute, the customers wont hold the remote in the "right" spot for that long thus a call complaining it doesnt work when in fact its the cheap customer that wasnt working.

Do yourself a favor and remove IR from your though process. You will never look back and often pat yourself on the back for making the right decision.

IR=more headaches that RF simply solves.

While I will agree that RF is going to be better than IR, IR is OK. It is also what is being used right now. So if the users are used to having long macros to control their equipment now, sending those same commands over a IR distribution system isn't going to make things worse.

RF is also going to be extremely expensive. It isn't that bad for one zone, but when you need a RF remote in every room, it adds up very quickly.

I use a xantech IR distribution system in my setup. It allows me to use relatively inexpensive IR remotes with LCD screens and customizable buttons. However, I simply send a single IR command to my CQC system which then sends out all the applicable commands to all the equipment. This prevents me from having long macros. For example, my "Play DVD" button will send out a single short IR command. When CQC receives this command, it actually sends out all the other commands (via RS-232 for the most part) to all the applicable equipment (TV, stereo, DVD player, etc).

I use cat5e wire for all my IR hookups without any issues. Some zones are going a pretty decent distance (100' or more) without any problems.

 

[jlegault]

Scrimp, scratch, steal or whatever it takes to RID YOURSELF of IR! It blows. Macros suck, pointing sucks, blah blah blah. We instated a NO IR policy and refuse to use it. RF is so superior its not a competition. After multiple service calls on IR customers, RF solved EVERY problem. Some macros can take 15 seconds plus to execute, the customers wont hold the remote in the "right" spot for that long thus a call complaining it doesnt work when in fact its the cheap customer that wasnt working.

Do yourself a favor and remove IR from your though process. You will never look back and often pat yourself on the back for making the right decision.

IR=more headaches that RF simply solves.

Actually serial or Ethernet is the wave of the future.....but it's not very accessible right now unless you like to write your own drivers. I would avoid RF at all cost as well. The range is poor, and there is lots of interference on the 900, 2.4, and 5.8 bands.

 

[swaggy]

I have a similar setup.

- All equipment except for a couple PS3s and an Xbox are in a central closet. Everything happens in the closet, including HD switching and distribution.
- All the zone switching and source distribution heavy lifting is done by 3 receivers (Yamaha with 3 zones, Integra with 3 zones, and a Marantz with 1 zone), an HDMI matrix, and some amplified RCA/Coax/Optical distribution buses
- I ran 3 runs of HDMI from bluejean cables to the home theater room and the main family room. There is a local PS3 in these rooms for playing games, and an HDTV/Projector/surround sound setup.
- Among other CAT5 runs, I ran a dedicated CAT5 cable to every room that required an IR receiver, my original design called for an IR receiver in most rooms.

IR Design #1:
- Xantech system. I started with the 4-zone 79520 unit connected to 9 IR receivers over CAT5. I didn't end up using the zoned capability, so I dropped back to a 79144 with a CB12 wiring block. The unit you pick really depends only on two things. 1) Do you need zones? Probably not unless you are using many of the same piece of equipment. 2) How many transmitters do you need? They make units that have two emitters per connection, so with a 79144 you can get 20 IR emitters, and expand to get another 20 if you need it. You will need their biggest power supply if you are going to have a lot of receivers and transmitters.
- All receivers are connected to the connecting block using only 3 conductors in the CAT5 line. I could use more, but 3 works fine. Probably several hundred feet in total CAT5 distance.
- I bought 10 Pronto TSU2000s to act as the IR "automation" brain.
- The Pronto program I put together requires that you pick a room before you start running IR macros, so the solution scaled pretty well over the last 10 years. It could "locally" control the TV in the room, so I did not have to run an emitter from the closet to the TVs or Projector.
- IR noise was an issue in the room with the Plasma TV, so I had to buy a fancy receiver designed to work with Plasma TVs (ug..not a cheap component)
- All in all, rock solid for 10 years. The Xantech stuff is indestructible.

IR Design #2:
- Same Xantech system as #1, but I no longer need it for the receivers in each room. I am moving to a series of iPad remotes over wifi, so I don't need a receiver in each room anymore. My goal was to create a totally integrated user experience that includes lighting, IR control, alarm, sprinklers, HVAC, Pool, Etc. I am doing this with HomeSeer and HSTouch.
- Since I could no longer use the universal remote's IR output to control the local components in each room, I used the same connecting blocks that the receivers plugged into to run an IR emitter to the TV/Game console. Alternatively you could put an Ethernet->IR or Wifi->IR box at each TV.
- After a lot of heart burn over getting stuck in the middle of Bitwise's recent decision to drop out of the DIY market, I ended up sticking with a Bitwise BC4X. It is superior solution in every way, plus you can still get hardware from HAI, so I bought a spare. Globalcache is an option, but the integration with HomeSeer is painful/eye-stabbingly tedious.


To answers your questions directly:

1) Cat5/5e/6 is sufficient. I would go with Cat6 if cost is no object.
2) If you go Xantech, everything will be rock solid. No issues with using Cat5.
3) XBox uses IR for their theater remote (buy it), so no issues there. For a PS3 you will need a USB IR dongle, or a Blutooth to IR converter.
4) HAI has their own IR controller, called the Home Theater Extender (HTX), which is a Bitwise BCX4 (don't tell anyone). You will need their 5.7 software along with their automation studio to allow the omnipro to trigger an IR macro (http://www.worthingtondistribution.com/cgi-bin/solutions/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1277690443/5)

Thanks for the detailed write-up!

I guess I assumed I need a multi zone xantech block. So it sounds like I can have multiple receivers in different rooms all wired to the same set of terminals on the 79144 block? If that's the case, I still don't understand what multi zone blocks would buy me.

Can you tell me which hdmi matrix switch you are using?

Thanks for reminding me about the HTX however, I was hoping I could automate right from the OmniPro without relying on their OmniTouch panel. Doesn't look like it will work without the OmniTouch.

 

[swaggy]

Actually serial or Ethernet is the wave of the future.....but it's not very accessible right now unless you like to write your own drivers. I would avoid RF at all cost as well. The range is poor, and there is lots of interference on the 900, 2.4, and 5.8 bands.

I was also concerned about interference in those bands. I've seen some IR to RF products that use 418Mhz I think but I think that's also the same range HAI uses for their wireless sensors and since I have those in my installation, that could be a problem as well.

 

[jlegault]

Multi-zone only helps when you have several devices using the same IR codes. For example, I have 2 PS3s - and I have to use two different zones so that I don't control both units at the same time. It's usually just an issue with cable boxes for many folks - though modern devices (like DirecTV receivers) support the concept of several instances of IR codes, so problem solved without zoned IR.

The CB12 is a bus, but essentially combines all receiver wiring in parallel to the terminals of the 71944. Look at the wiring diagram in the manual:
Manual for 71944

For the Omni - there are a couple other options I can think of
1) You could use Homeseer to watch for a Output On/Off to trigger an IR macro.
2) Xantech makes a relay triggered IR Macro - so all you need is to apply a close contact relay, and this device will send off a programmed IR macro: http://www.xantech.com/Controls/ControllersSwitches/ControllersSwitchers/59010/

I am using the Monoprice "4X2 True Matrix HDMI 1.3a Powered Switch w/ Remote Controller (Rev. 3.0)". It seems to work fine with my PS3, AppleTV (gen 1 & 2), Xbox360, Sony DVD Changer, DirecTV DVR, and HTPC. I've only had it for a couple months so I can't comment on its durability.

 

[AnthonyZ]

Actually serial or Ethernet is the wave of the future.....but it's not very accessible right now unless you like to write your own drivers. I would avoid RF at all cost as well. The range is poor, and there is lots of interference on the 900, 2.4, and 5.8 bands.

Not to be too nit picky but, Ethernet is a wired standard and closer to IR distribution than RF. Two, serial is solid, dependable and yet, hardly the future. More and more devices are dropping it everyday. I think it would be more accurate to say that Ethernet on the source side combined with "app" driven control and/or RCF4E (or it's potential, future equivalent) are more aptly thought of as "the future" of remote control.

I'm with Ranger. RF is a VASTLY better solution than IR distribution. IR is only comparable in ease of use or dependability when you place it under a layer of more robust (and expensive, in terms of $ and time) control (like sic0048 has done). Your comments on poor range seem to come from a theoretical point of view than from actual real world experience. As someone responsible for having sold, programmed and installed over 100 such systems, I can assure you that RF performance from modern lines is strong like bull. Further, if truly concerned, additional RF access points can be added to mitigate any potential issues. All of this is said assuming that one is thinking in terms of a better product offering than, say, Harmony.

 

[swaggy]

Which RF solution would you recommend?

 

[jlegault]

Not to be too nit picky but, Ethernet is a wired standard and closer to IR distribution than RF. Two, serial is solid, dependable and yet, hardly the future. More and more devices are dropping it everyday. I think it would be more accurate to say that Ethernet on the source side combined with "app" driven control and/or RCF4E (or it's potential, future equivalent) are more aptly thought of as "the future" of remote control.

I'm with Ranger. RF is a VASTLY better solution than IR distribution. IR is only comparable in ease of use or dependability when you place it under a layer of more robust (and expensive, in terms of $ and time) control (like sic0048 has done). Your comments on poor range seem to come from a theoretical point of view than from actual real world experience. As someone responsible for having sold, programmed and installed over 100 such systems, I can assure you that RF performance from modern lines is strong like bull. Further, if truly concerned, additional RF access points can be added to mitigate any potential issues. All of this is said assuming that one is thinking in terms of a better product offering than, say, Harmony.

Well put - I was thinking about my experience with a Harmony and RTI solutions (T2+RF6, 890 from many years ago) that did not work in my house. When I said "Ethernet", I should have said TCP/IP in general, and over WiFi. To me, this is the way to go if you are building a system from scratch in 2010.

 

[signal15]

Wasn't Zigbee supposed to solve all of our IR woes?