James from New England here, trying to do a big DIY system from scratch

[rocketmonkeys]

Hi all,
 
I've been reading through some of the forum (not as much as I'd like) and the wiring 101 guides, and it's been a huge help.
 
I'm currently in the middle (or more?) of a new build.  My goal is to create a HA system mostly DIY / from-scratch in order to save money, automate everything, and just in general be pretty neat.
 
My background:
 
- Computer programmer
- Comfortable building PCs, networks, etc
- Decent with simple small-electronics soldering
 
Right now my (flexible) plans:
 
- Central computer that handles DVR, webcam monitoring/security, file backup, and home automation
- Motorized shades on many windows (not sure which motor yet)
- Ethernet drops (w/ POE) in ceilings for IP webcams (baby monitors, general living area, etc)
- Ethernet drops in walls for DVR/TV (using xbmc or mythtv + embedded boxes)
- Some outside ethernet drops (w/ POE) for security IP webcams
- Automated light switches/dimmers (living areas, external lights)
- Remote controlled external door locks
- Motion sensors for DIY security system (ie. txt me a picture when discovered when I'm out of the house)
- Some random appliance sensors (ie. washer/dryer are done)
- In-wall speakers for living room
 
Details of the house
 
- Spray foam insulation
- No basement/crawlspace
- 2 stories + attic
 
Right now the house is framed, sided, and nearly done being pre-wired.  I'm about to close up walls and trying to get the last wiring details in. (as of 2013-04-16)
 
And finally, a list of things I need to figure out (mostly for my own benefit):
 
- What kind of wiring do I need for the window shades?  (maybe cat5e + 18/2 for DC power)
- What webcams can I use? (have foscam right now, but they're not great... something with h264, reliable, audio, better delay)
- How can I put in-wall / ceiling speakers in walls that will be filled w/ spray-foam insulation (icynene)?
 
- What kind of lighting control should I use?  something wireless?  Powerline?

- What kind of door-locks should I use?
- And so much more... 

 
Looking forward to getting advice here and learning, and hopefully come out with a great system.

 

[sic0048]

Welcome!  Hopefully you will continue to find CT as a good resource.
 
As far as your questions.
1)  Wiring for shades.  I think a cat5e wire and a 18/2 wire is the safest method of wiring.  Keep in mind that many shade systems are coming out with wireless options because most people cannot run wires in a retro situation.  They use a wireless control technology (like z-wave) and battery power.  Obviously since this is new construction it is best to prewire.
2)  Web cameras - this is a constantly debated and evolving question.  The short answer is that you get what you paid for.  Most of the cheaper cameras out there might be fine for indoor use, but their quality can be pretty bad, especially their nighttime quality.  Better quality cameras are going to cost a decent amount of money (off the top of my head I would say in the $400+ range).
3)  Hopefully you are prewiring for the speakers.  You just have to carve out the foam once you cut the speaker hole for installation.  It shouldn't be too hard to do, but keep in mind that it reduces your insulation factor.  So if you are talking about exterior walls, it might be best to consider stand alone or wall mounted speakers rather than inwall speakers.
 
4)  Again, lighting systems are constantly debated and evolving.  Hopefully your electrician wired the switches with a common wire.  This gives you the most flexibility when it comes to lighting systems.  Right now RadioRA2 seems to be very well regarded.  Personally I have a Centralite Jetstream system that works well too.  I've never tried the other systems.
5)  I like the old fashion manual/non controllable locks, but that is just my personal preference.  I just don't like the look of the controllable locks with their keypads and large form factor.

 

[Frunple]

Don't forget POE drops for access points. Engenius makes some that look like smoke detectors, they work very well in my experience.
Don't plan on one pc to do everything. 
Go with a DVR instead of a pc for security cams. They are so cheap these days there's not a valid reason not to unless you are deadset on IP cams.
Put the speakers in the ceilings, not walls.

 

[rocketmonkeys]

Wow guys, great responses so far!  I think I'm going to like these forums...
 

Welcome!  Hopefully you will continue to find CT as a good resource.
 
As far as your questions.
1)  Wiring for shades.  I think a cat5e wire and a 18/2 wire is the safest method of wiring.  Keep in mind that many shade systems are coming out with wireless options because most people cannot run wires in a retro situation.  They use a wireless control technology (like z-wave) and battery power.  Obviously since this is new construction it is best to prewire.
2)  Web cameras - this is a constantly debated and evolving question.  The short answer is that you get what you paid for.  Most of the cheaper cameras out there might be fine for indoor use, but their quality can be pretty bad, especially their nighttime quality.  Better quality cameras are going to cost a decent amount of money (off the top of my head I would say in the $400+ range).
3)  Hopefully you are prewiring for the speakers.  You just have to carve out the foam once you cut the speaker hole for installation.  It shouldn't be too hard to do, but keep in mind that it reduces your insulation factor.  So if you are talking about exterior walls, it might be best to consider stand alone or wall mounted speakers rather than inwall speakers.
 
4)  Again, lighting systems are constantly debated and evolving.  Hopefully your electrician wired the switches with a common wire.  This gives you the most flexibility when it comes to lighting systems.  Right now RadioRA2 seems to be very well regarded.  Personally I have a Centralite Jetstream system that works well too.  I've never tried the other systems.
5)  I like the old fashion manual/non controllable locks, but that is just my personal preference.  I just don't like the look of the controllable locks with their keypads and large form factor.

 
 
1) I created a thread here for the shades: http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/24534-about-to-finish-pre-wiring-and-need-to-wire-for-motorized-blindsshades-which-wire-should-i-use/
 
Some good info there.  I'm trying to do hardwire, future proof, and cheap.  I'm thinking I'm going to have to give up on that last one
 
2) I have some foscam's now.  They do great in daytime & night (I have some of the IR's taped off) for interiors.  They do badly on FPS + audio lag.  I would love to be able to use cheap IP cameras, but I'm guessing that wont work so well.  Not sure yet.
 
3) Created a thread for my speaker question here: http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/24535-has-anyone-put-in-wall-speakers-in-a-spray-foam-icynene-insulated-exterior-wall-how-did-you-make-room/
Yes, I'm prewiring.  I'd love to have in-walls inside the exterior walls if I can, just have to figure out if it's worth the compromise.
 
4) I asked him to do neutral/ground/common at each box, which I think he does by default anyway.  I wanted to make sure zwave + dimmer + LED lights wouldn't be a problem.
 
5) I have visions of Tasker on my phone + GPS, when I drive up the driveway my garage opens / lights come on / doors unlock.  We'll see.  At the very least, a controllable-lock in the garage so my wife doesn't have to wait while I fish out my keys every time (purses seem to eat housekeys).
 

Don't forget POE drops for access points. Engenius makes some that look like smoke detectors, they work very well in my experience.
Don't plan on one pc to do everything. 
Go with a DVR instead of a pc for security cams. They are so cheap these days there's not a valid reason not to unless you are deadset on IP cams.
Put the speakers in the ceilings, not walls.

 
Good point.  I haven't thought much about access points... I supposed I should add a few more drops for those.
 
Really interesting Re: the DVR.  I have a couple foscams, but I definitely want something more robust.  Seems like the cameras for the DVR systems are much cheaper too (~$50 per camera, vs $100-200 for semi-decent IP cameras).  I'm currently wiring ethernet w/ POE to each camera location, but maybe I should be doing coax + audio instead?

 

[Frunple]

I use a power/video server which connects to my dvr. It let's you run a single cat5 to each camera location. Basically it's a video balun and a power balun in one unit. Uses 1 pair for video, the other 3 for power. I just recently put it in and I did notice a little degradation on the night vision but looks perfect in the day, also, not enough degradation to matter.
 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0097H8BK8/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 
Everything you will need in one kit, just add cameras and dvr. 

 

[rocketmonkeys]

@Frunple
 
That's really interesting.  I was actually just searching for "coax over ethernet" type stuff, came up w/ this:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=110&cp_id=11011&cs_id=1101101&p_id=6878&seq=1&format=2
Basically the cable-balun side of things.  Looks like yours is better (consolidated, power supply, etc).
 
I think I'm going to keep ethernet for all the camera drops, and maybe use cheap IP cameras for now.  As weak as it is, the Foscams I have now work well for what I need (monitoring family/doors), and I want to keep costs down.  If I need to upgrade later I can look into nicer cameras and/or analogs w/ baluns & a dedicated DVR.  But I think ethernet will be fine for me.

 

[Del91574]

If you're planning for IP cameras, or at least analog for the time being, but want to migrate to IP, run a category cable and at least an 18/2 to the location....you can use baluns if needed, however the big issue, even with POE is not having enough power at the far end for IR's or heater/blowers, or the extreme case, a PTZ.

 

[Del91574]

If you're planning for IP cameras, or at least analog for the time being, but want to migrate to IP, run a category cable and at least an 18/2 to the location....you can use baluns if needed, however the big issue, even with POE is not having enough power at the far end for IR's or heater/blowers, or the extreme case, a PTZ.

 

[Frunple]

@Frunple
 
That's really interesting.  I was actually just searching for "coax over ethernet" type stuff, came up w/ this:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=110&cp_id=11011&cs_id=1101101&p_id=6878&seq=1&format=2
Basically the cable-balun side of things.  Looks like yours is better (consolidated, power supply, etc).
 
I think I'm going to keep ethernet for all the camera drops, and maybe use cheap IP cameras for now.  As weak as it is, the Foscams I have now work well for what I need (monitoring family/doors), and I want to keep costs down.  If I need to upgrade later I can look into nicer cameras and/or analogs w/ baluns & a dedicated DVR.  But I think ethernet will be fine for me.

Yeah, you're better off anyway. This thing makes it too easy to add cameras! I find myself going around the house saying "I can put one there" or "Wouldn't be hard to get a cat5 there".  :blink:

 

[Del91574]

I'll provide my warning for those that see those monoprice baluns as a godsend....
 
We have a very large campus install that was specified to run baluns, similar to those shown, with the intent to one day move to POE based PTZ's and other future cameras. The issue is that the POE can't provide enough power for a heater or IR's in many of the analog cameras that we installed (300+) at this site.
 
Unless you're running POE+ or very high powered POE that exceeds POE+ specs, those style baluns will only work well with generic indoor cameras.

 

[Frunple]

You're comparing a house to "a very large campus"?

 

[rocketmonkeys]

If you're planning for IP cameras, or at least analog for the time being, but want to migrate to IP, run a category cable and at least an 18/2 to the location....you can use baluns if needed, however the big issue, even with POE is not having enough power at the far end for IR's or heater/blowers, or the extreme case, a PTZ.

 
For now, I'm planning on trying to stay within the POE envelope.  I don't need huge IR arrays, PTZ would be nice for some spots.  Seems like some PTZ cameras use ~5w, which seems like it would work.  The Dahuas seem to say "max 1.5w", which seems low.  But some random internet poster says 4-5w, which is still doable.
 
Out of curiosity, what are heaters/blowers used for?
 
 

Yeah, you're better off anyway. This thing makes it too easy to add cameras! I find myself going around the house saying "I can put one there" or "Wouldn't be hard to get a cat5 there".  :blink:

 
Tell me about it.  I had a revelation while researching cameras; I don't need HD for a baby-monitor cam (!).  I can get by with so much less than the "perfect setup".  Non PTZ, non-HD in most places.  If I scale back to "what I need" plus a little more, it's much more manageable.  It's hard not to get caught up in the bug though.
 
 

I'll provide my warning for those that see those monoprice baluns as a godsend....
 
We have a very large campus install that was specified to run baluns, similar to those shown, with the intent to one day move to POE based PTZ's and other future cameras. The issue is that the POE can't provide enough power for a heater or IR's in many of the analog cameras that we installed (300+) at this site.
 
Unless you're running POE+ or very high powered POE that exceeds POE+ specs, those style baluns will only work well with generic indoor cameras.

 
At this point I'm ruling out baluns.  I'll use cheap IP cameras, or expensive ones.  I'll go w/o coax / analog, that's fine.  In all honesty, a few wireless cams at >1 FPS 640x480 would probably get me what I need.  And POE + IP will allow me more, if I truly need it.
 
 

You're comparing a house to "a very large campus"?

 
Yeah he did
 
 
I think my current plan is to use some cube-style cheap IP cameras for most places, and get a few PTZ/HD cameras where it matters (main living area, some externals).  I *really* like the Dahua's I've been researching - seems like a decently priced solid HD/PTZ/IR camera, a huge step up from my Foscams now.  If they do good audio without lag/dropouts, then I'm sold.  I'll get a few of those for key areas, cheap in the rest, and call it a day.

 

[Del91574]

You're comparing a house to "a very large campus"?

Nope.
 
Istated that because the site I'm referencing mandated category and baluns as design criteria by engineers that "know more" than the average joes.
 
100M is very easy to hit in a many residences where cameras are installed on the outskirts and up 2 or 3 levels from the switch location. We certify our cables post installation, so we have reports on every install we have network cabling installed, so we have accurate lengths combined with the test reports in our as-builts.
 
When you're running a category cable with passive baluns, distance starts becoming very important, especially as the cable and connections age....the first item that starts to head south is color on the video. Most passive baluns are rated to anywhere from 600-1K feet, but as the cable ages, or if a termination corrodes slightly, the distance easily can be halfed...unless you take a scope to the signal to see what is going on.
 
For the OP: Better cameras have heaters/blowers to help keep the electronics within their design spec and help with condensation inside the housing or on the optics. Other units have dessicant packs within the housing. Whether or not you see such on a $100-150 camera could vary widely. We're not talking enough heat to warm your hands on a cold day or IR's with enough power to light up 100' out here, but all the better units I typically deal with have all sorts of issues running off a POE rated supply once the heaters (or blowers or both) kick in...you can watch the image quality suffer visibly.
 
If you're roughing and thinking of the future, I'd pull a category and an 18/2 to each location as a minimum. If you're doing a belt and suspenders install, it's a siamese and category to each location, unless ptz control is happening and a specific cable is needed for the data.