More LED bulb options

[tmbrown97]

I'm definitely curious what you think then Lou - since it sounds like you've looked at more bulbs than I have. While I don't love the color, I don't hate it either... and I wish the lights were a little less directional - then I'd replace even more bulbs. But all in all I was definitely pleased with the dimming performance.


I had all CFL's in all my houses for the last 10 years and was fine with that (I tended to like the cold start - it let my eyes adjust with the lights)... but in this house everything just seemed too bright at times - so I wanted dimming... which worked well when I went all UPB anyways. At that point I decided I wasn't giving up my incandescents until a nice dimmable replacement came along...

 

[electron]

Just an FYI - I went back to Lowes for more of these bulbs while I had a 10% coupon... instead of pallets in the entry way the sign was moved to a shelf that had about 50 lights on it, and the sign said the sale ends on the 25th I believe.
To refresh your memory: http://www.lowes.com...Dled%26page%3D3 (seems the sale price is gone online).

I bought another 15 (for a total of 30) and replaced the bulbs in all my cans as well as a couple dense chandeleirs. All in all I'm pretty happy. Theyu don't look like PAR bulbs if you're staring into the fixture while the bulb is off. While the bulb is on, everything is very well lit up - and because of the upward directional nature of the bulb it works quite well. If you knew to look for it you could nitpick color and the way it looks in the can - but if nobody ever told you, you'd probably never notice (and your wife probably won't notice if you don't tell her).

I also let the kitchen ones run for an hour then hit it with the temperature laser - and was getting a max surface temp of about 115 if I hit it just right - closer to 100 degrees most anywhere else. It didn't appear that any heat was getting to the fixture itself really.

For me this was worthwhile. Based on an average 4hrs/bulb/day (some are less, some are way more) - these should save me an average of $78/month, or just shy of $1K for the year - not bad for a $270 investment. Since I'll get my ROI before summer's end, when something better comes along I won't feel bad about replacing these - but, since they'll probably last until my kids are grown, we'll see when I get around to it. For those with more reasonable electric rates, you're looking at more like a year for ROI.

I still have to go back for one more bulb - I miscounted... and maybe a spare or two to keep on the shelf (I did drop one of the bulbs on the concrete while loading them into the car - it may die early!)

Just bought one of these myself, and they are very nice. My store only had 3 left, 2 of them in damaged packaging, or I would have bought more. Don't forget to get a 10% coupon at the local post office.

 

[IndyMike]

I've been struggling to make the led economics work for some time now. We enjoy extremely low electric rates (I won't print them - it'll just tick people off) and I've converted most of our high consumption areas to CFL's. The consumption difference between CFL's and LED's, combined with low rates, results in an extremely long payoff. On the flip side, most of my CFL's are dimmable and they are just barely tolerable. At $10 a bulb, it may be time to trade economics for convenience.

If I toss the calculator out the window, my concern becomes one of durability. Has anyone tried the Utilitech bulbs in the following applications:

1) I have 8 outdoor CFL's that run for ~ 9 hours each night. These are basically for security purposes and I do dim them at preset times. The dimming range that the CFL's provide is barely acceptable (light pollution) and the noise they produce winds up being a maintenance item.

Has anyone tried the LED's in an outdoor (coach light - semi-enclosed) application?

2) I have a number of areas where I am using motion activate PAR-30's in cans (hallways, stairs). These are typically lit for only 1 minute during passage.

Has anyone tried LED's in high cycle/short on time applications?

Thanks,
IM

 

[Jimmyjam]

I tried one in an outdoor coach light on out covered porch, and it died within a couple of days. It was one I bought from Home Depot.

 

[IndyMike]

JimmyJam,

Thanks for the heads up. I just got back from Lowes with six of the Utilitech 40W. I had intended to put all of these outside. Based on your experience, I'll proceed slowly.

Although the LED's do have the "pop on" phenomena, they appear to dim very linearly and over a far greater range than my Purespectrum CFL's. The Purspectrum units are the least objectionable of my dimmable CFL's. So far, so good.

The sign at my local Lowes indicated the sale was on until 5/30.

 

[Neurorad]

Neurorad,

Might I askas to where you are getting the LMR4's for $70? It appears to be a new lamp from cree, currently there LR4's (no M) are 106 to 160 apiece online. Hard to swallow when the excellent CR6's are so prevalent and, relatively speaking, cheap. I have contemplated buying a CR6 and seeing if I can mod it for a 4" can the prices are so different. I have 4" cans in the kitchen because I feel that offered the best look, and those are the lights in my house that spend the most time on and I would like to get LED's in.

I haven't bought any, I searched using google shopping.

It seems Newark is the exclusive NA distributor of the LMR4

http://www.semiconductor-today.com/news_items/2011/JAN/CREE_060111.htm

http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=500003+1001750&Ntk=gensearch_001&Ntt=cree+lmr4&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial

Looks like Newark has some in stock, but many available from Newark via 'Farnell UK Direct Ship', with a $20 surcharge per order. Will ship to the U.S., not sure what shipping would be.

 

[tmbrown97]

CFL's are not meant for short-cycle on/off - for that reason they're not recommended for closets, etc. LED on the other hand doesn't seem to care - it really should last through millions of cycles. Also they're not as susceptible to temperature as the CFL's.

They do say not to expose directly to weather - to have covered in some way but not fully enclosed.

That said, I use CFL's for my outdoor lights - in fact, in this house they're my only CFL's - because they come on and stay on for a long time; I don't need dimming (but I'd like it in the future); and I don't care about warm-up time; and they're cheap for the application.

 

[apostolakisl]

I picked up the Lowe's $9.95 utilitech pro 7.5 watt (40w eq) bulbs. Except for the price (my Lowe's had about a dozen more on the shelf and a sign stating that the sale ends 5/30), I'm not a huge fan. The light is somehow not the most pleasant. I would guess that it is a blend of a few narrow spectrum colors which gives it the unflaterrering aspect. I put it in a celing can on one side of an open passageway and left an incandescent in a can on the other side and compared the two. The two areas were eseentially a split of a hallway with both areas having the same physical characteristics (cream color paint on walls, same ceiling height, floor, and general dimensions) The color had a more magenta-ish hue to it, but it wasn't the color so much as a sense that it is harsh. It seems very contrasty. I don't know how else to describe it. It is as though it is dark and light at the same time. The light doesn't seem to bounce off of stuff to fill in the shadows.

To date, the only LED I have used with what I would call good soft white light is my Cree LR6. That is not to say there aren't others, I have personally only tried about 10 different LED's. The Cree, in my opinion, is a perfect incandescent replacement when used at full brightness. I have some of the cold blue LED's that I do like for one application, in a glass cabinet crystal display. Those looked really aweful in other applications.

The bulb also has the "out the top only" thing that most of the LED's of this style have. This pretty much rules out using it in a floor or table lamp unless you want all the light shooting out the top of the shade.

 

[IndyMike]

CFL's are not meant for short-cycle on/off - for that reason they're not recommended for closets, etc. LED on the other hand doesn't seem to care - it really should last through millions of cycles. Also they're not as susceptible to temperature as the CFL's.

They do say not to expose directly to weather - to have covered in some way but not fully enclosed.

That said, I use CFL's for my outdoor lights - in fact, in this house they're my only CFL's - because they come on and stay on for a long time; I don't need dimming (but I'd like it in the future); and I don't care about warm-up time; and they're cheap for the application.

Hi Work2Play,

I should have elaborated a bit more in my post. I understand that CFL's are not designed for short-cycle applications (I use incandescents). I was interested in whether the LED electronics would hold up to repeated on/off cycling. Most likely too early to tell.

My main objectives were to obtain a reasonable dimming range (achieved in my previous post) and reduce the powerline spiking the dimmable CFL's produce. I pulled the scope out today to determine how much noise my Insteon dimmer/Led combination produced.

20W Pure Spectrum CFL @100%: 15 Vp-p

60W Incandescent @100%: 800 mVp-p

7.5W LED:640 mVp-p

Bottom line - the LED's produce less powerline noise than a 60W incandescent. This is better than I could have hoped for.

IM

 

[tmbrown97]

I picked up the Lowe's $9.95 utilitech pro 7.5 watt (40w eq) bulbs. Except for the price (my Lowe's had about a dozen more on the shelf and a sign stating that the sale ends 5/30), I'm not a huge fan. The light is somehow not the most pleasant. I would guess that it is a blend of a few narrow spectrum colors which gives it the unflaterrering aspect. I put it in a celing can on one side of an open passageway and left an incandescent in a can on the other side and compared the two. The two areas were eseentially a split of a hallway with both areas having the same physical characteristics (cream color paint on walls, same ceiling height, floor, and general dimensions) The color had a more magenta-ish hue to it, but it wasn't the color so much as a sense that it is harsh. It seems very contrasty. I don't know how else to describe it. It is as though it is dark and light at the same time. The light doesn't seem to bounce off of stuff to fill in the shadows.

To date, the only LED I have used with what I would call good soft white light is my Cree LR6. That is not to say there aren't others, I have personally only tried about 10 different LED's. The Cree, in my opinion, is a perfect incandescent replacement when used at full brightness. I have some of the cold blue LED's that I do like for one application, in a glass cabinet crystal display. Those looked really aweful in other applications.

The bulb also has the "out the top only" thing that most of the LED's of this style have. This pretty much rules out using it in a floor or table lamp unless you want all the light shooting out the top of the shade.

Fair enough - that tells me where you're at. Those LR6's must be awesome bulbs then! Unfortunately the price point is still way off before I'll jump.

For now, I'm a cheap ass and I'm happy that I didn't lose much in dimmability... though I do share your disdain for the color - elsewhere the thought of saving even $78/month off my electric bill is enough to make me compromise. I'll revisit the topic in about 2 years when I expect there to be so many new and better options. In fact, it's my prediction that fixtures will start changing to move away from replaceable bulbs and go to LED "permanent" fixtures - intended to be installed as a single unit and left for 10+ years - where new art forms can come into play without the traditional boundaries of "bulbs" as we've known our whole lives. I expect lighting in general to change completely over the next decade. It can only get better from here!

 

[mdesmarais]

In fact, it's my prediction that fixtures will start changing to move away from replaceable bulbs and go to LED "permanent" fixtures - intended to be installed as a single unit and left for 10+ years - where new art forms can come into play without the traditional boundaries of "bulbs" as we've known our whole lives.

This is a cool idea!

 

[apostolakisl]

Fair enough - that tells me where you're at. Those LR6's must be awesome bulbs then! Unfortunately the price point is still way off before I'll jump.

For now, I'm a cheap ass and I'm happy that I didn't lose much in dimmability... though I do share your disdain for the color - elsewhere the thought of saving even $78/month off my electric bill is enough to make me compromise. I'll revisit the topic in about 2 years when I expect there to be so many new and better options. In fact, it's my prediction that fixtures will start changing to move away from replaceable bulbs and go to LED "permanent" fixtures - intended to be installed as a single unit and left for 10+ years - where new art forms can come into play without the traditional boundaries of "bulbs" as we've known our whole lives. I expect lighting in general to change completely over the next decade. It can only get better from here!

Well, I own one Cree LR6. I bought it as an experiment. If they were $20 I would replace a lot of lights, but at $80, not gonna happen. The LR6 is indistinguishable from incandescent at full power by the naked eye. It just looks like an incandescnet with a diffuser. I haven't tried the CR6, they are $50 at HD, still too pricey for me. For now, I am just buying one or two at a time for experiment until I find the right light at the right price.

 

[pdessart]

Did the list of LEDs ever come to fruition?

One thing I wanted to point out is that various dimmable (non-incandescent) bulbs behave differently depending on the dimmer used. For me, knowing how a dimmable LED or CFL bulb will work with Insteon dimmers is key, so I appreciate anytime someone includes dimmer model in posting their experiences.

Peter

 

[IndyMike]

Did the list of LEDs ever come to fruition?

One thing I wanted to point out is that various dimmable (non-incandescent) bulbs behave differently depending on the dimmer used. For me, knowing how a dimmable LED or CFL bulb will work with Insteon dimmers is key, so I appreciate anytime someone includes dimmer model in posting their experiences.

Peter

Hello Peter,

The scope traces presented in my previous post were taken from the "line" side of a Icon Lamp dimmer (2856D2). The noise generated with this device is similar to other Insteon dimmers - the main difference is the load. I have measured an 8 CFL load producing over 40 p-p spikes on the powerline. My main problem with the spikes is that they can "overwhelm" the dimmer and send it into "lockup". Once in lockup, a air-gap is required to recover operation. This doesn't happen that often (2x / month), but it's incredibly annoying.

As dim levels decrease, the spikes will "walk" close to the zero crossing of the 60 Hz powerline. At extremely low dim levels the spikes can be close enough to the zero crossing to interfere with Insteon communication. This is at best a secondary effect since most CFL's will extinguish long before getting close to the zero crossing.

Hope that helps,
IM

 

[signal15]

Hello Peter,

The scope traces presented in my previous post were taken from the "line" side of a Icon Lamp dimmer (2856D2). The noise generated with this device is similar to other Insteon dimmers - the main difference is the load. I have measured an 8 CFL load producing over 40 p-p spikes on the powerline. My main problem with the spikes is that they can "overwhelm" the dimmer and send it into "lockup". Once in lockup, a air-gap is required to recover operation. This doesn't happen that often (2x / month), but it's incredibly annoying.

As dim levels decrease, the spikes will "walk" close to the zero crossing of the 60 Hz powerline. At extremely low dim levels the spikes can be close enough to the zero crossing to interfere with Insteon communication. This is at best a secondary effect since most CFL's will extinguish long before getting close to the zero crossing.

Hope that helps,
IM

Home Depot just started selling more of the LSG Definity bulbs under the Ecosmart name. They now have 90, 110, and 125w equivalent PAR30's and PAR38's. Color is either 3000k or 4600k depending on the model you choose. Price range is $41-46. They also have a 60W equivalent Ecosmart bulb that is meant to replace a regular light bulb, but I haven't used that one. I do have 11 of the other ones though, and I'm VERY happy with them. They are brighter than the 75W halogens I replaced, are dimmable, AND they are waterproof so you can use them outside. I have two of them in a fixture on the side of my house illuminating the stairs up to the back yard. These take 34W for both of them, and they replaced a fixture that took 300W.

Now if only my power company would subsidize them... they will if I'm a commercial building, but not residential.