More LED bulb options

[etc6849]

I'm not sure if it will bother anyone, but the utilitech pro's do make an audible 60Hz hum on my dimmers (but not on a normal switch).   Also, if you see the 100W Utilitech's for less than $34.98, please post.  I think some utilities subsidize the cost, and I'm interested to see which areas has them discounted and how the discount works (is it a rebate, do I need to show a bill, etc...).
 
I also found an issue with the Philips 100W alien head:
I ran three of the Philips 100W equivalents last night on one dimmer, and after a while noticed that if I turn the dimmer on, then off real fast, the lamps come back on?!?  Seriously, wtf?!?  I think disabling soft on/ramp on will get rid of the issue, but I haven't tried that yet.  I tried three Utilitech's on one dimmer and they worked great.  The Philips alien head is dead silent though if noise bothers you, and two worked fine on the dimmer.

 

[IndyMike]

Hello etc6849,
 
Glad to see you are getting some quality time with your Rigol scope.  It's a very nice unit.  Thank you for taking the time and effort to post these results.
 
I have tried, in the past, to make similar measurements, but have been frustrated by the speed of the inrush (< 50 us) on the LED bulbs).  To that end, I do have some questions/comments:

1. Your Fluke I30 current probe is a very nice unit (I'm envious).  Unfortunately, it is rated at 20Khz bandwidth (-.5db).  That's more than sufficient for measuring Incandescent inrush current, but is likely a little slow for measuring the repetitive inrush of the LED's.  I would guess that the inrush on your Phillips bulb is actually a bit higher as a result.
2. I agree that the Utillitech LEDs has very low inrush, and generate less noise than Incandescent equivalents.  I have some old posts around here showing voltage spikes referred to the line that demonstrate this.  If I had to guess, I would say that Utillitech is using a series inductor to slow/moderate the inrush.
3. I also agree that the CFL you tested appears to be quite good.  Could you please post back the make/model?
4. I'm questioning the Incandescent turn-on inrush current that you presented showing a "cold" inrush of 2.5 A.  A 100 watt bulb when cold should be about 9.6 Ohms.  That would equate to around 12.5 Amps at initial turn-on.  Is it possible that the filament was still hot when you performed your test?
5. CREE bulb flicker:  Your method of measuring the bulb flicker was rather Ingenious.  I would, however, point out that while these don't appear to work well with your Vizia dimmer, they may perform well with other manufacturers.  Could you post back the specific model Cree that you tested?  I was about to order some of the BR30 equivalents.
6. Vizia RF dimmer: I am not that familiar with the Vizia line these days.  Is this a 3-wire (neutral connection) dimmer?

 
Please understand that I am not throwing rocks here.  I am trying to understand your data so I can learn from it.
 
IM

 

[Waynedb]

I'm not sure if it will bother anyone, but the utilitech pro's do make an audible 60Hz hum on my dimmers (but not on a normal switch).

I am not hearing any hum on my Insteon dimmers, my old ears might not be as good as yours and the constant ringing in them could be drowning out the noise. I can usually here hum and have returned bulbs in the past for that reason.

 

[Waynedb]

CREE bulb flicker:  Your method of measuring the bulb flicker was rather Ingenious.  I would, however, point out that while these don't appear to work well with your Vizia dimmer, they may perform well with other manufacturers. 

I have 2 of the $12.95 a19 60 watt equivalent Cree bulbs in a wall fixture, I only notice flicker at very low dim levels, it might be much worse with only a single bulb on the dimmer.

 

[etc6849]

Hi Mike,
 
You are right, I only measured the Cree with my Vizia RF dimmer.  Unfortunately, I tested it last week before installing the software to take scope screen shots, so I didn't document anything.  I think I tested the daylight 60W equivalent, but I returned it to HD already.  I'm sure they are 100% ok on a dimmer if you follow their recommendations of two or more, but they still have flicker (you can see this on youtube or candlepowerforums).  Definitely, using two or more of the Cree's per dimmer would greatly improve their performance as Cree actually recommends more than one lamp for almost every dimmer they support.  
 
In fairness, I know if I use only one Utilitech 100W equivalent, the standby light on my Vizia dimmer flickers, indicating it's not getting  enough standby current.  However, by using three or more, the equivalent resistance the dimmer sees is much lower, so it has a better path for standby current.
 
Fluke i30:
You raise a valid point!  I don't use a scope very often (let alone any other test equipment) and actually just purchased the scope as I want to get into designing amplifiers.  I think the bandwidth of the i30 at +/-20kHz is at -.5dB.  To me, this means the actual bandwidth is much much greater.  If only 20000 Hz, this equates to a 50 uS period.  A sample every 50uS seems small, but it could miss a peak capturing.  Fluke's 80i-110s would be a better choice as it has a 100kHz bandwidth...
 
I'm only using the i30 because I got a steal for a like new one on ebay $160.  The i30 retail would be almost as much as the scope was!?!  I don't even think the ebay guy opened the box for it.  It was some company who was liquidating a bunch of industrial control stuff.
 
I tested my i30 using a Rigol DG4062 function generator, set to a 5V sinewave at 10kHz, 25kHz, 50kHz, 100kHz and 200kHz.  I used a shielded BNC cable that had short clips on the end and hooked the i30 around one of the clips (yellow line is current where 100mV=1A) and the blue line is the voltage across a 47 ohm resistor (47.27 ohms).  The pictures are attached.  Based on the results, I think it's fine to use the i30 for transient tests, unless I'm missing something?
 

Hello etc6849,
 
Glad to see you are getting some quality time with your Rigol scope.  It's a very nice unit.  Thank you for taking the time and effort to post these results.
 
I have tried, in the past, to make similar measurements, but have been frustrated by the speed of the inrush (< 50 us) on the LED bulbs).  To that end, I do have some questions/comments:

1. Your Fluke I30 current probe is a very nice unit (I'm envious).  Unfortunately, it is rated at 20Khz bandwidth (-.5db).  That's more than sufficient for measuring Incandescent inrush current, but is likely a little slow for measuring the repetitive inrush of the LED's.  I would guess that the inrush on your Phillips bulb is actually a bit higher as a result.
2. I agree that the Utillitech LEDs has very low inrush, and generate less noise than Incandescent equivalents.  I have some old posts around here showing voltage spikes referred to the line that demonstrate this.  If I had to guess, I would say that Utillitech is using a series inductor to slow/moderate the inrush.
3. I also agree that the CFL you tested appears to be quite good.  Could you please post back the make/model?
4. I'm questioning the Incandescent turn-on inrush current that you presented showing a "cold" inrush of 2.5 A.  A 100 watt bulb when cold should be about 9.6 Ohms.  That would equate to around 12.5 Amps at initial turn-on.  Is it possible that the filament was still hot when you performed your test?
5. CREE bulb flicker:  Your method of measuring the bulb flicker was rather Ingenious.  I would, however, point out that while these don't appear to work well with your Vizia dimmer, they may perform well with other manufacturers.  Could you post back the specific model Cree that you tested?  I was about to order some of the BR30 equivalents.
6. Vizia RF dimmer: I am not that familiar with the Vizia line these days.  Is this a 3-wire (neutral connection) dimmer?

 
Please understand that I am not throwing rocks here.  I am trying to understand your data so I can learn from it.
 
IM

 

[etc6849]

Here's another plot of the i30, same test as in previous post but at 60Hz.

 

[IndyMike]

Hello etc6849,
 
Thank you for the detailed response.  I have not used the Cree bulbs previously and did not know that they recommend more than 1 bulb per dimmer.  Like you, I have a couple of locations with only one of the Utillitech bulbs on a dimmer - no observable issues.
 
I will agree that your I30 probe does not appear to be rolling off significantly.  Your 10uS plot appears to be in-phase with good levels.  The 2uS plot is beginning to pick up phase shift.  Based on those results, I will again agree that the impulse plots should be representative.
 
 

Hi Mike,
 
You are right, I only measured the Cree with my Vizia RF dimmer.  Unfortunately, I tested it last week before installing the software to take scope screen shots, so I didn't document anything.  I think I tested the daylight 60W equivalent, but I returned it to HD already.  I'm sure they are 100% ok on a dimmer if you follow their recommendations of two or more, but they still have flicker (you can see this on youtube or candlepowerforums).  Definitely, using two or more of the Cree's per dimmer would greatly improve their performance as Cree actually recommends more than one lamp for almost every dimmer they support.  
 
In fairness, I know if I use only one Utilitech 100W equivalent, the standby light on my Vizia dimmer flickers, indicating it's not getting  enough standby current.  However, by using three or more, the equivalent resistance the dimmer sees is much lower, so it has a better path for standby current.
 
Fluke i30:
You raise a valid point!  I don't use a scope very often (let alone any other test equipment) and actually just purchased the scope as I want to get into designing amplifiers.  I think the bandwidth of the i30 at +/-20kHz is at -.5dB.  To me, this means the actual bandwidth is much much greater.  If only 20000 Hz, this equates to a 50 uS period.  A sample every 50uS seems small, but it could miss a peak capturing.  Fluke's 80i-110s would be a better choice as it has a 100kHz bandwidth...
 
I'm only using the i30 because I got a steal for a like new one on ebay $160.  The i30 retail would be almost as much as the scope was!?!  I don't even think the ebay guy opened the box for it.  It was some company who was liquidating a bunch of industrial control stuff.
 
I tested my i30 using a Rigol DG4062 function generator, set to a 5V sinewave at 10kHz, 25kHz, 50kHz, 100kHz and 200kHz.  I used a shielded BNC cable that had short clips on the end and hooked the i30 around one of the clips (yellow line is current where 100mV=1A) and the blue line is the voltage across a 47 ohm resistor (47.27 ohms).  The pictures are attached.  Based on the results, I think it's fine to use the i30 for transient tests, unless I'm missing something?

 

[BLH]

There is a dimmer compatibility chart on the Cree web site. Some dimmers are Ok with one of the Cree Bulbs some show 2 in the minimum column.
I don't think any automation devices are in the list but that seems to be the normal thing.

 

[IndyMike]

Thanks Brian,
 
Interesting compatibility chart.  Most of the dimmers listed only require a single load. 
 
Also interesting that the reverse phase dimmers can handle almost 2x the number of bulbs.  This implies that the load is primarily capacitive - the reverse phase dimmer encounters minimal inrush.  Really wish that some of the automation vendors would start providing reverse phase units (other than Lutron - $$).

 

[tmbrown97]

Why tax more?!?  That's the last thing we need is more taxes.  I should be penalized by the government for wanting nice looking dimmable light that will not shorten my dimmers life span?  This is what's wrong with this country.  It's my electric bill, if I want to pay a little more each month and have the means to do it, it's really no one else's business.  It doesn't make me stupid either.
 
I don't see Washington screwing factories or commercial facilities over, and they use waaaaay more energy than my residence.  Why aren't they required to convert to electric ballasts and T8 lamps?  After all their lamps are on 8 hours or more a day...   The whole ban is bull$%^# if you stop and think about it.

In CA they have pretty strict controls; all commercial spaces seem to need motion sensors to turn things off; even grocery stores are going to all LED displays and if there's nobody in an isle for more than a minute or two, all the lights turn off.  There's a ton more to it - but CA has gone really far with their power limiting rules.  The dumbest of all is one that says that the first switch you hit when you walk into a room has to be the lowest-energy consuming light.  WTF? So as I walk into the kitchen and hit the first switch, only the two lights over the island can come on?  And now that I've converted to LED elsewhere, these two odd cans that use CFL are actually my HIGEST energy consuming.  And in the bathroom, what use is the little light over the john while I'm trying to get ready?  Instead it teaches us to hit all the switches as we walk into a room, or completely undo most of the stupid Title24 restrictions as I've done, by rearranging switches how they make sense and replacing irritating fluorescent fixtures with simple cans so all my lights can be uniform.

 

[etc6849]

That really blows.  Thank goodness the rest of the US isn't that bad.

 

[Waynedb]

That really blows.  Thank goodness the rest of the US isn't that bad.

Not yet, "As California goes, so goes the nation".

You will get all the same stupid laws and problems we have, it will just take awhile longer.

 

[apostolakisl]

Not yet, "As California goes, so goes the nation".

You will get all the same stupid laws and problems we have, it will just take awhile longer.

 
Not here in Texas!
 
Although all the damn Californians keep moving here because it is a better place to live and do business and then vote for the same crap that ruined their old state.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I have to agree.  Lots of California influence here in Nevada (right next to it) as a lot of people moving so they can afford housing.  Just wait Lou, the migration is heading East! :nutz:

 

[tmbrown97]

Lou - just hope they don't bring our gun laws with 'em :huh: