My Wiring Plan

Lou,

HDMI is digital, not an analog signal, so no signal loss from connectors, that's a huge myth in hardware/components that people believe, including the "gold" connector myth or the "monster" cable myth. The signal is either there or not there or there's quality issues with the data as being received from the transmission side. The main issues with HDMI is cable construction and cross talk within the pairs. That's part of the issue with people using 2 pieces of category cable for HDMI and then using baluns or adapter plates. There's no limitation within the spec for the maximum distance the signal will work, only practical distances until a repeater would need to be deployed to counteract the capacitance of the cable, voltage loss through such, or near/far end crosstalk. There's plenty of stuff on the market to run reliable and "audiophile" grade video/audio up to 1000' relatively easily, although typically when running that sort of distance, changing media away from copper is a far more practical choice.

I laugh when I see people pay for "audiophile" grade HDMI cables with gold connectors, etc. and them advertised as improving the X or Y compared to a standard HDMI cable. Look at many of the consumer ads and packaging for plenty of examples of this. There is something about buying a quality constructed cable, however none of the gold or X or Y sales pitch features do anything to improve the signal, what does is what HDMI standard and version the cable is tested to.
 
Dell,

So you are suggesting that we put female/female adapters at the ends of 75' runs of HDMI cable?

I'll stick with my direct connections.
 
Lou,

As I've said before, you do as you will. I pointed out how your knowledge and understanding is grouped into the myths and urban legends dating back to the wonderful marketing plan that Monster came up with, that's all. I'm not a hobbyist or armchair quarterback, or a consumer, this is my trade that I do daily. If you'd like to discuss experience and knowledge base, let me know, I don't know which classification I should consider as your background.

I think you're misunderstanding how HDMI and other digital signals work and are confusing the matter with DVI, S-video and Component. No amount of adapters or length will change a 0 or 1 into it's opposite. What will happen is crosstalk, skew, attenuation of the signals or the differential between the data pairs starts to essentially disappear. How this manifests varies depending on the HDMI spec the hardware is attempting to meet.

I wouldn't be running HDMI over a cable that long anyways, far easier and more economical ways to do it rather than copper and the issues with baluns and category cables...the whole industry knows about the issues with distributed video and cabling and how category cables are compounding issues...it's cabling that is not designed for the purpose it's being installed and used for.

Part of what many are suggesting for running a pre-made cable or similar is part of the problem that NFPA is strongly discussing....running non-inwall rated cabling and assemblies within spaces that are designated for such.

I'd take a pair of quality 35' cables coupled and mated over a single low-quality cable of the same length. Cheap faceplates, cables and components lead to poor performance, which may be what your experience is.
 
Dell,
1) You state that connectors are equal at signal transmission as un-interrupted wire. So by this logic, 75 one foot sections are thus equal when connected together as a single 75 foot run. Those would have to be damn good connectors. Connectors degrade signal and introduce noise. Please go ahead and tell me that is an urban myth. The 0 and 1's don't change, you are right, it's just that your tv can't tell which is which.
2) 75' Cables Work, I have 2 of them (watching tv through one right now). Plus 3 50 footers. They work too. In fact, I have never bought an HDMI cable that didn't work, including cheapo ones from ebay. One of my 75' cables I picked up on ebay for $40. You say you can do it better and cheaper. But as you also said, it either works or it doesn't. So, since mine works, it is already at max quality. Must be that you do it cheaper. Tell me how you are getting it done for less money.
3) You run them in conduit, as I stated. That's what conduit is for.
 
While doing my best to stay out of this one, I will mention something in particular I've noticed - and that is that certain cables work just fine at 6ft - but combine 2-3 of them, and they no longer work. The cable construction is fine for 6', but due to thinner gauge or less concern over crosstalk interference, etc - when running longer distances, they won't work. Sure I suppose you covered this in "Quality Cables" but it's a case where the 1's and 0's just don't always make it.

One case - my next door neighbor actually... he went to Best Buy and purchased two 25' HDMI cables at like $75 each and a coupler so he could relocate his A/V equipment. After he hooked it all up, it didn't work. Per my suggestion he went and found a $30 50' cable and ran it in place, and it works great.

I'm half with you on the whole "Monster" phenomenon - It's utter BS, especially people worrying about connecting a $100 cable to the $.07 connector on the back of their device. I even had one client go on and on about how changing the cable modem to a new DOCSIS 3.0 model made their HD picture better (and no, his STB was in no way connected to his modem)... I never waste money paying for a name - I look for construction quality, and obviously know that digital is digital - there's really no variance. The only part I'd contest is about connectors... The reality is that every connector introduces a potential failure point - and if someone used a really low-quality cable from the connector to the TV, it could be just the amount of loss to cause the signal to go out. I'm not talking degraded quality - I'm talking either it syncs or it doesn't; or perhaps it's not able to get the higher level sync and has to drop in quality. I've seen it first hand.

As for which cables should be run in-wall - that one gets violated constantly - I even see Best Buy do it all the time - they run regular power-cords in-wall. Lou - IIRC, just running wire in a conduit does not compensate for it not being rated for in-wall... I could be wrong though.
 
Work2Play,

Yeah, totally agree. My experience is the same. I attribute it to the following.

1) Connectors are mechanical failure points
- they are rigid points in a flexible system and thus are subject of focal strain when the wire is manipulated
- they have delicate contact points which can be bent out of position resulting in no or poor contact
- Unlike Dell, I would always opt for a single wire over two spliced wires. Assuming both work at installation, two connected wires are at vastly higher risk of future issues because of the mechanical issues.
2) Connections are susceptible to noise. The shielding is interrupted and the twisted pairs are not twisted.
3) Connections are non-perfect surfaces which will have surface contamination, physical gapping, and oxidation which degrade signal strength.

S/N ratio is the key. The beauty of digital is as long as you are above threshold, its perfect. It's kind of the straw that broke the camel's back concept. You can keep handicapping your S/N ratio with zero quality loss until you hit that point, then you have complete failure.

I also consider Monster cable a joke. Now, it might just be that if you start stringing together a bunch of shorter wires, the higher quality Monster components (an assumption here), might actually keep you above that minimum S/N threshold. But, it would be much cleaner and cheaper to just buy a continuous longer wire off ebay.
 
Lou, as I said, you're missing the point and entire theory of HDMI. You're hand picking your comments to construe real installation practices. You're confusing analog terms and values with digital, not to mention tossing buzzwords around in applications where they just don't apply, sorry.

I did not say I would mate 2 cables as a preference, I would choose that method over a single, poorly constructed cable. Junction points should never be left inaccessable .In your point #1, a properly run permanent building cable, strain and manipulation is not going to be a factor...the cable is permanently fixed and terminated. The better hardware uses the automotive HDMI connectors which have locking means (don't think you knew that). Connections are always going to be kept to a minimum as a design criteria, you chose a statement regarding the quality of a cable to be an installation method, which it clearly was not intended to be.Connectors do have their issues, another discussion altogether.

Work has it correct, connections introduce a failure point and they introduce what I stated, capacitance, inductance, crosstalk and voltage loss. Enough of one or the other or a sum of multiples, the digital signal won't pass.

Read your point #2. I stated this multiple times which you choose to ignore. Crosstalk,Skew, capacitance and inductance. Noise is distortion on an analog signal. Signal to noise is an analog value, not a digital one. Connectors, introduce untwist and add to conductors crossing each each other, contributing to the factors I stated...that little molded plug has conductors running all over the place. Cut one apart and look at it, poorly made units have all sorts of slop in there, the better ones are tighter, cleaner and have less cabling inside. Part of the issue with running category cables is the amount of twist within the cable being unequal, causing timing issues...that's why there's baluns (BALancedUNbalanced). Cable constructon 101.

S/N only is relevant in an analog value. Lou, in fiber optics, S/N is not used and they're digital, right? Care to explain? Loss is not S/N, loss is just that, loss (attenuation). Don't confuse what dB's represent and how they are used in measurement. You have X amount of signal, you go below the value the other end can pick up reliably, it doesn't work. Where does noise come into the picture? It doesn't. In the case with copper and digital signals, you induce enough on the cable, your other end won't see the voltage change for a 0 or 1 or be able to overcome the induced voltage...not S/N. Noise is distortion to an analog signal. While it can exist on a wave's binary value, it's still not going to change the binary value as it's represented.

To sum up your comments from #19:

1. Introducting that many patch cables, the nature of the connectors themselves and how the pinouts work, you're going to introduce crosstalk, that would be the reason I could foresee it not working. I don't have the time or energy to drag out the scope to provide you the exact failure mode.

2. Cheaper cables will work and provide a picture, however you neglect to address the issues that occur with timing, skew and bandwidth...color and sound issues. Blacks aren't black, pixelation and loss of resolution or refresh rates. You might not notice it or experience it on your install, it might even be the "grade" of equipment you're using, consumer hardware is not created equal to mid and above hardware. I'm happy yours works using the method you describe, however I would not go through and state it's at max quality because in reality, your picture is acceptable to you in your application with your components, it has not been put on a scope or proven to perform at any level higher than the HDMI standard your lowest HDMI port is rated for. It's very doubtful your equipment supports the resolution up to the specification level. Fact.

3. Wrong, dead wrong. You can't chicken pick your cable and install it in conduit and call it a day. If the cable is not rated for inwall use, installing it in a raceway does not change that classification, nor should any cable that is not rated for inwall be run behind them. Do the big boxes and other do it...yes, but it's so blatently wrong, which is why it's being investigated and discussed within the code committees. I'm not going to get into all the differences and reasons that inwall cable has from regular general use cable, I can't do your homework for you. There's a reason why they make the power inlet plates with a male plug recepticle and corresponding plate and tell you to source your own romex....it's not because they don't know the distance between the two.

I'm not doing your homework on how to perform a distributed HDMI install within a structure or even more so, a code compliant drop, do your own homework, this dog won't hunt.If you really want to see how it's done, go to a sports bar with distributed high quality video,installed by a pro, preferably HDMI from a centralized matrix and look for their 50' or 75' patch cables....you're not going to find them.
 
Dell,

As is usually the case. You have lost the forest for the trees.

Just pulling a couple of your glaring points:

1) Cross talk is noise. You seem to think it is something else. Why. . . because twisted pairs and shielding is broken at the connections. Pinout is not something different from that. It is the implementation of the unshielding and untwisting.
2) Skew and bandwidth, color and sound issues. Skew or timing errors between the strands results in speckles or picture loss altogether. Not some esoteric picture degradation that only an elite person can appreciate. Bandwidth? You either have it or you don't. Again, no subtle quality loss. Sound, dolby digital and dts are lossless formats. It either gets through or it doesn't
3) I'll grant you that some inspectors won't allow non-wall rated wire in conduit. But almost none will give a hoot. If there were even close to a real safety issue there, BB and the like would have had been sued for sure. But they haven't. And if indeed you get an inspector who doesn't like it, just slide it out.

You are a guy desperately holding on to some ill-conceived notion that only you are good enough to do this stuff. "I won't do your homework" .. .I didn't ask you to. But you keep volunteering it anyway. You said you can do it better and cheaper. I said, OK, how. Your response is quite telling. You do your homework and lose the condescending attitude.
 
Lou,

Again, what you choose to believe and do, more power to you.

Based on your comments regarding what your inspectors and installers in your area missed on your own house, I'm not surprised they didn't catch improper cabling or methods. I'll chalk it up to the mentality of the region regarding "doing as I wish with my property" castle doctrine. Whether or not the officials in your area do their job properly and with due dilligence is another issue altogether. Can't change the mentality of some people within that area, so I'm sorry that apparently your experience with them is they don't care. Matter of time until people get hurt or worse from lack of caring, mandating more code changes and laws.

As I said, if you're happy with the performance of your install on your equipment, more power to you. The issues I've stated are dealbreakers where I'm involved. I've had to pull a $60K monitor or change from LCD/LED to plasma because of the items you claim are esoteric. How many times have you seen the issues firsthand with your own eyes on multiple pieces of equipment?

You asked me for methods and materials for how to distribute HDMI further and more reliably than via your patch cable method...sounds like you wanted the answer. I'm sure you know the answer, you seem to know the rest. The hint is you don't do it over copper.

The big boxes have already been sued, multiple times, I'm sure you knew that as well. They've lost their license in 6 states up here and require their "geek" employees to carry the contractor's license....care to explain that? It means that they've been brought up on disciplinary action with the examining boards and suspended, with their staff-contractor covering the other employees (either licensed or not, depending on state regs) having their license suspended. Their business model has moved to shift the ultimate responsibility and their deniability to their installation staff, not them as a company. They also subcontract out tons to the trunkslammer market.

To put it blunt Lou, my college degree includes 3 of the 4 years needed for an EE degree (Bachelor of Science) and my trade licenses are within this industry for over 20 years, I do this daily. If you care to share what you do for a living and background, I'm all for it.

I do my homework, show my answers and work and move along. If you lost the abrasive responses when your viewpoints are challenged, that would possibly help the apparent condescending attitude you read into posts.
 
Dell,

Lets go back to the beginning when you went off.

I said in post #15 "Every connector contributes to signal loss"

You went off on a multi paragraph insult as to how I don't understand anything because of that statement and how wrong it was. Subsequently you have contradicted that statement. You admit to "crosstalk" occurring in connectors. Crosstalk will at sufficient levels cause signal loss.

So BB has been sued for running HDMI cable inside conduit? I am not talking about any law suit for anything, but HDMI inside conduit. . .that is what we are talking about. Because a customer suffered what ill effect I might ask? Does BB even put conduit in a wall ever?

And by the by, inspectors inspect home before you move in. HDMI cables aren't even run at that point. They don't even get inspected. But leave it to you to throw insults at my hometown as well as me. You're such a nice guy.

You went off on how much better and cheaper you would do it. I didn't ask you to say that, but since you decided to deride me, I think it is a worthy question as to how. Your little "not copper" remark is cute. How that would ever be cheaper is a gigantic mystery to me. Better would be somewhat subjective depending on the details of the installation site and customers desires. It's hard to beat copper for reliability, durability, and cost in new construction (which is what this thread is about).

So here is the thing. This is a forum. It is pleasant that a pro chooses to participate in a user forum. It is obnoxious when a pro, or anyone thinks this is his blog.

But I have to ask, what kind of pro gives away free advice like this? If I were a prospective customer googling you and reading your insulting rants, I would not hire you regardless of your skill set. Furthermore, what the hell are you doing? As a pro, everything you write in this forum can be construed as professional advice. Unlike most of us, you can be sued for any mistake or mis-interpretation that results.

Congrats on almost having a college degree.
 
Lou, I'm not going to argue over this with you, it's not worth my time, so I'm providing you some information to construe and digest as you choose to.

I can't be sued for what I write here, no contractual obligations to yourself or others here and no agreement for system design, system consultation or engineering advice, nice thought and try though. I do have a problem with people suggesting actions that are flagrant (although done typically through ignorance) violations of code and should not be suggested as viable solutions for whichever reason you choose to believe. What you choose to do in your own house is your own decision, go ahead, run with scissors and juggle knives, but to call it safe and what everyone else should do because you've done it or seen a guy with rainbow colored hair do is irresponsible.

Before you attack credentials and credibility, I will provide mine, since your comment speaks volumes.

I have a BS in music and sound recording with audio technology engineering with a minor in EE, hence my statement I had to take 3 of the 4 years worth of classes as an equivalent of a straight engineering degree in addition to the other classes for the degree. In addition to my 4 year degree, I carry 2 electrical trade licenses within my state, 1 as a contractor, 1 as a journeyman. I carry a NICET IV in fire alarm system design and engineering and a NICET III in CCTV.I have to recertify every year for my licenses and continuing education units for NICET. My company has been contracted to install audio for a specific government agency you might be familiar with, with locations in VA, Houston, Huntsville and CA in additon to other high profile accounts and clients. We are one of two contractors certified to work with and install security systems for the USAF. I've dealt with the engineers and AHJ's in your specific state in addition to other areas of the country, and frankly, the engineers at those specific sites in Tx cared more about the install, workmanship and code compliance than the AHJ's. Not insulting your home town or state, just stating facts as I've experienced within your state in direct contrast to what I experience in others. As I said, I'm sorry that AHJ's in certain areas can't or choose to not enforce compliant installations.

The big box guys don't install conduit. I was referring to installing, in your specific case, cable that is not inwall rated within conduit, which by every stretch of imagination is a code violation. The big box guys have been sued, fined and disciplined by state boards over running power, video and audio cabling in wall that was not rated for such, Those "scoop" plates and similar, once you install a glorified patch cable or run power cords, or my personal favorite, extension cords, through them, it's an issue, and for clarification's sake, those cables do not have the proper testing or specs for flame travel, smoke production, etc. etc. to be run within a wall, hence their lack of a rating or being suitable for such. As I said, there's a reason in the NE that the big boxes are moving to have their "installers" act as independent contractors and hold the licenses....because their own staff had them pulled or suspended for violations that they've been already caught with...pass the liability so the parent company can be in the clear.

I've said it before, there's a lot that you may have not experienced within the industry as a HO in the section of the country you are in. I believe you're confusing an inspector as someone brought in by a buyer prior as part of home sale negotiations, basically another set of eyes, but not qualified as an expert within the building trade(s). As far as what is inspected and what is not, specifically within a 5 state radius of mine, insurers commonly send underwriters and inspectors, with suitable trade expertise and background in the areas being inspected, to go through properties to ensure the property is code compliant, even if a C of O has existed for decades or the policy is simply being renewed. This is due to the insured values and to mitigate loss. I have witnessed and had to install fire alarms, CO and supervisiory devices to satisfy the underwriters so the property could be insured. I've watched them tell HO's their breaker panels need to be upgraded/replaced (Federal Pacific specifically) or service cables needed to be replaced and deny coverage. I've had specific citations to code sections written in reports, can't say the same with the pre-sale home inspectors. We have to commonly provide documentation for inspection and testing of these systems, including NFPA forms. There's a huge difference in an inspector and a guy that shows up with a flashlight and ladder and walks around a property, which I think is who you are thinking I am referring to.

And for doing your homework, the price of a smurf cable with fiber and related hardware is cheaper than the sum of all the other cables pulled separately or a pre-made cable and performs far better, not to mention isn't going to become obsolete. I've made plenty of money on the installs where people ran DVI, S-video or component in copper and now want/need HDMI for their purposes, the ROI on the infrastructure just doesn't add up over the lifespan of the technology.

As far as your "free" advice statement, I have enough work on the books and backlogged for the next 5 years, contractually. I'm secure enough in my industry and business that it really doesn't hurt me to provide free and truthful advice regarding systems. I have nothing to hide with my installs or what I've stated. I'd be more concerned regarding the "pros" and "gurus" that don't speak up regarding what should and should not be done, lock systems out, don't provide passwords and fail to turn over the documentation on the products or provide blueprints of their installs, even a set of "as builts".

As I said I'm happy your installed systems, equpment and selection of components work within your standards and design criteria for an integration project. Best of luck in your endeavours Lou.
 
I enjoy the lively debates as much as the next man - but I'm concerned that the OP's thread has essentially been hijacked (and I know I'm guilty of this too).

I don't know how to bridge the gap between recommending the only "right" way that's 100% code compliant without alienating every DIY'er out there who knows full well that even though that cable running 4 vertical feet behind the sheetrock is against code, it'll work fine - and the reasons it's against code are valid, but the implications suggested are rare occurrences and are a bigger issue in larger homes, multi-tenant dwellings, hotels, office buildings, etc. There's generally a huge variance in cost between the different methods.

It's also definitely true that inspectors in different municipalities care about different things. Case in my own city - I installed a secondary gas line last year that goes to the fire pit and BBQ along with a couple new electrical circuits. The inspector dinged me on not painting my conduit (even though it's UV rated, there wasn't enough exposed to see the writing) and missing a screw in my breaker box. He did validate my GFCI with a pocket tester. For my gas, he didn't check a single thing - didn't check for leaks, look at the meter, test to ensure that the metal trace wire was wrapped, or that it even operated correctly. All he asked was "I'm assuming this hasn't blown up, so it's OK?". But he had to gain access to the interior of my house to validate that I had CO detectors around the house - even though, once in, he wasn't as strict about where I put them since CA's code is kinda loose. All that in a state that's known to be just absurd with restrictions...
 
HDMI is digital, not an analog signal, so no signal loss from connectors, that's a huge myth in hardware/components that people believe

Dell,
By making broad statements like this and saying that you have an EE degree gives a bad mark to the engineering discipline.

Electrical signals are ALL fundamentally analog. Information is in-turn encoded onto these analog signals is various ways. For example, a simple on/off digital encoding might impose thresholds on the analog signal as to interpret a zero or one. Other encoding might use the amplitude of the base analog signal to indicate a continuous value. Other encoding schemes modulate the base signal to carry information.

But ALL signals are affected by various types of fading, noise, crosstalk, skew, etc. And then the information encoding scheme may or may not be affected by this channel noise.

So PLEASE do not state that digital signals are not affected by signal loss.
 
EC, yes I do know that however I was addressing another set of issues and over simplifying the circuit(s) for purpose of discussion.

If the parties involved had a osillocope and wanted to chart the signals and compare a quality cable, a generic monitor cable and a pair of quality cables with a coupling and see how they perform and then sweep test them and compare them to the HDMI spec, they could, however for purposes of discussion, I didn't get deep into the theories and address the input/output impedance and waveform/modulation comes into play.
 
Back
Top