Need help designing a system to monitor a water boiler...

[beelzerob]

My cousin installed a wood burning water boiler to heat their house, and it works great! It's also filled the house with smoke at least once, and has signs it had at least 1 flue fire. So, while he takes care of all of the other safety related repairs and projects, he's asked me to design a system to help him monitor the system's vital signs and to appropriately warn the family if needed.

Because I've only known CQC to this point, I'm kind of at a loss to think outside that all-in-one box. He's always balked at CQC's price (and even with the current sale, I can't get him to accept the yearly fee, even though I understand the reason for it), and that's probably ok, because he's not looking to control his media or distributed audio or lights....really, it's just a system to monitor temps and sensors and to notify...maybe some relays to control water valves, too. So, maybe that means some kind of home automation panel would work ok?? Or maybe it's Premise or Girder running on a PC?? Or build the control from scratch with java services and server pages?? Again, since I only know CQC (and I know it can do all those things with ease), I'm not sure what the capabilities of other stuff is out there.

Here's the basic list of requirements at this point:

• Water temps
• Water detector
• Heat Detector (digital input)
• Smoke detector (will probably use GE ESL350CX to get the tandem line of his existing smokes)
• CO detector
• Flue temp measurement (external, surface temp measurement, probably up to 400 deg)
• Web-based status readout, so it's accessible from any PC's in the house AND outside the house (from work)
• External alerting capability (whether annoying noise or voice/TTS)
• Email notifications
• Phone notifications
• Relay control (water valves, most likely)
• Extensibility, ease of adding more and varied sensors

We're both software engineers, so if coding or device drivers are required to make some of this work, that won't be a problem. It'd be fun to write as much as possible in java. However, I'm more concerned just about stability than anything else, and so if we had to use a PC, that's adding some potential unreliability into the system (though I use one for CQC, and can't complain about its reliability). Mainly the idea that a PC has more moving parts than most things, so that's more that can go wrong. But maybe a thin client would be able to handle whatever software controls this system, so that would be a tad more stable.

Or if there's an automation panel that could handle all this (and more), and that may be even better. I know the Elk can do MOST of what's on the list, but all of it? And would the Elk be even more overkill than CQC would be?

Thanks for the help guys!

 

[Digger]

Make sure there are some CO detectors in the house as well as smoke detectors.

 

[beelzerob]

Smoke detectors they have, and I'll probably have him swap in a GE-350CX so that the tandem line will trigger a relay we can sense.

CO detectors is definitely a good idea. I need some anyway, too.

So, since at this point I can't say how MANY inputs will be needed (digital OR analog), whatever system is devised will obviously have to be easily expandable.

Doing some searching, I think the flue temp sensor might be the hardest. I can't find one that can handle more than 200 something degrees. 400 really is preferrable, as it's unlikely to get that hot unless something is wrong (the boiler part extracts most of the heat from the air going up the flue, so it's not like a standard fireplace).

 

[Scrambled]

beelzerob-

Look for a PID for any of the temperatures that you need to monitor. These use a thermocouple to measure the temp. So there is a wide range of temps it can handle

Here is a cheap one on E-bay

http://cgi.ebay.com/Dual-Digital-F-C-PID-T...%3A1%7C294%3A50


Hope this helps.


Steve

 

[WayneW]

Doing some searching, I think the flue temp sensor might be the hardest. I can't find one that can handle more than 200 something degrees. 400 really is preferrable, as it's unlikely to get that hot unless something is wrong (the boiler part extracts most of the heat from the air going up the flue, so it's not like a standard fireplace).

Do you need a sensor or just a high limit switch? Thermo switches are available at a range or temperatures, so you could use a couple of them at different temperatures to get ballpark or safe/danger warnings. I have one bolted to my BBQ to nag me if I forget to turn it off.

 

[beelzerob]

Thermo switches are available at a range or temperatures, so you could use a couple of them at different temperatures to get ballpark or safe/danger warnings. I have one bolted to my BBQ to nag me if I forget to turn it off.

Dude, WHERE DID YOU GET THAT?? My first BBQ had a yellow streak on it where I used a broom handle to open the lid because it was so hot I couldn't open it, because I'd left it on, burning off the grease. My grill had a sag in it and my ignitor burned out from that. Now I always set my cell phone alarm to go off after like 10 minutes, but I'd LOVE some kind of other notification.

And ya, I think those would work. While a temp curve is pretty nice, it's not really useful info...just mainly want it for the warning nature of it.

 

[WayneW]

Thermo switches are available at a range or temperatures, so you could use a couple of them at different temperatures to get ballpark or safe/danger warnings. I have one bolted to my BBQ to nag me if I forget to turn it off.

Dude, WHERE DID YOU GET THAT?? My first BBQ had a yellow streak on it where I used a broom handle to open the lid because it was so hot I couldn't open it, because I'd left it on, burning off the grease. My grill had a sag in it and my ignitor burned out from that. Now I always set my cell phone alarm to go off after like 10 minutes, but I'd LOVE some kind of other notification.

And ya, I think those would work. While a temp curve is pretty nice, it's not really useful info...just mainly want it for the warning nature of it.

http://skycraftsurplus.com/index.asp which is sort of local to me and I don't see them on their web site or allelectronics.com web site.

You are looking for something like this http://www.thermodisc.com/productdetail.asp?ProductID=1
Maybe a local appliance parts store has them?
They are just like any other switch, so you can wire it to an alarm panel zone or a DS10a (like I did)

 

[mustangcoupe]

And would the Elk be even more overkill than CQC would be?

no, never

I know the Elk can do MOST of what's on the list, but all of it?

I think so lest see ....

Here's the basic list of requirements at this point:

• Water temps *** temp probe wraped around water pipes....
• Water detector *** either leak sensor if thats the intent or a flow sensor....
• Heat Detector (digital input) *** why digital? I know people use heat detectors instead of smokes in kitchens so it depends on temp
• Smoke detector (will probably use GE ESL350CX to get the tandem line of his existing smokes) *** yes.
• CO detector *** yes
• Flue temp measurement (external, surface temp measurement, probably up to 400 deg) *** not sure of max temp peobes...
• Web-based status readout, so it's accessible from any PC's in the house AND outside the house (from work) *** yes with xep
• External alerting capability (whether annoying noise or voice/TTS) *** yes
• Email notifications *** yes but limited xep email setup
• Phone notifications *** yes but limited to TTS words
• Relay control (water valves, most likely) *** yes i do this for irrigation
• Extensibility, ease of adding more and varied sensors *** yes

So what is the max temperature is my only question, and addition of a security setup is a plus if he doesnt have one

 

[beelzerob]

You are looking for something like this http://www.thermodisc.com/productdetail.asp?ProductID=1
Maybe a local appliance parts store has them?
They are just like any other switch, so you can wire it to an alarm panel zone or a DS10a (like I did)

Hmm...I couldn't find any actual temp info..it must have just escaped me. Are those things made partially with plastic? I don't see how they'd survive if they are.

How did you attach yours to your bbq? And what temp did you pick? I know the thermometer on mine gets up to 550 pretty easy, but that's AIR temp of course, not external metal temp.

 

[beelzerob]

[*]Heat Detector (digital input) *** why digital? I know people use heat detectors instead of smokes in kitchens so it depends on temp

Well, I'm still kinda fuzzy on the difference between analog and digital inputs. I'm basically looking for an "instant" sensor. I have a datanab, a zeebox D250 and a secu16, and the datanab's analog sensors can take upwards of 5 seconds before they'd report a closed circuit. But the zeebox and secu16 are essentially instant. I had equated that to the difference between digital and analog.

Otherwise, what I meant was the heat detector will be a simple relay, so I need something that can detect a closed relay. I would expect us to put a normal 135 deg heat detector in the room with the boiler.

[*]Email notifications *** yes but limited xep email setup
[*]Phone notifications *** yes but limited to TTS words

What's defined as "limited"?

So what is the max temperature is my only question, and addition of a security setup is a plus if he doesnt have one

I guess I'll have to find that out, that's probably in the boiler's specs. He was estimating normal flue temps would be between 150 and 300, so we'd need an indicator if it went beyond that.

 

[beelzerob]

Let me also say that I'm not looking necessarily for a single system that can handle all of those sensor inputs (though an elk probably could, right?). For instance, I know my datanab can handle pretty much all of the sensors....but then I would need something that supports the datanab directly. Obviously CQC does, but I don't think the Elk does.

Or maybe an ocelot/secu16. Then I'd have inputs and relay outputs. Does the elk support that? because otherwise I guess we'd have to be talking about some kind of software control solution, right?

Does girder or Premise do things like email notifications or phone calling out?

 

[WayneW]

You are looking for something like this http://www.thermodisc.com/productdetail.asp?ProductID=1
Maybe a local appliance parts store has them?
They are just like any other switch, so you can wire it to an alarm panel zone or a DS10a (like I did)

Hmm...I couldn't find any actual temp info..it must have just escaped me. Are those things made partially with plastic? I don't see how they'd survive if they are.

How did you attach yours to your bbq? And what temp did you pick? I know the thermometer on mine gets up to 550 pretty easy, but that's AIR temp of course, not external metal temp.

Some may be part plastic or ceramic or something non-metallic looking, I dunno. I think mine is 165 degrees F. I just picked something that would be above Florida black-object-in-the-sun temp. My gas grill had some small holes in the bottom half, so I just used a small bolt & nut to attach it. I have done this on two grills.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Snap-Disc-Limit-Switch...8QQcmdZViewItem
http://www.hvacpartsoutlet.com/adjustables...mitcontrol.aspx
http://www.electronicsurplus.com/ccc1763-thermostat.htm
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/products.asp?dept=1197

 

[beelzerob]

Excellent Wayne, thanks for the links. I found several in the 300 deg plus range which should work fine for his flue skin temp, and I can poke around for a 165 deg one too for the grill!

By the way...do you just attach normal wire to those? I'm not sure what the melting point of the plastic sleeve is, but I'd think it'd be close. Or is there special high-temp wiring you can get?

 

[WayneW]

Excellent Wayne, thanks for the links. I found several in the 300 deg plus range which should work fine for his flue skin temp, and I can poke around for a 165 deg one too for the grill!

By the way...do you just attach normal wire to those? I'm not sure what the melting point of the plastic sleeve is, but I'd think it'd be close. Or is there special high-temp wiring you can get?

I just used "normal" wire, prolly 22 gauge. But mine is operating basically free air for cooling and was mostly for convenience. Since this is more serious, you should pay attention to the temp rating.

 

[mustangcoupe]

[*]Email notifications *** yes but limited xep email setup
[*]Phone notifications *** yes but limited to TTS words

What's defined as "limited"?

limited email, ... email is pre-defined messages you setup, and camt change on the fly or use variables

limited phone/tts..... can only use words in elk's preprogramed list not actually tts