New Start Retrofit in House UPB vs Z Wave

[guy999]

PLEASE read my article about UPB in my signature - it explains key differences throughout the Simply Automated product line. I say that because the 240's are a misunderstood switch IMO. They have their place, but they're not a universal switch as they may seem on the surface - in many situations a 1140 is much more appropriate. Not to say you can't use a 240 like a normal 1140, but there are key differences.

Also - not sure what $350 switch you saw, but 1140's and 240's and 2240's dim LED just fine... I run a bunch of 1140's and 240's and have 30+ dimmable CFL's in my house and they mesh just fine.

this is the best article on upb that i have read, i wish that i had seen it before i started buying thank you so much for writing it, i will have that one on hand for all of the rest of my process!!!!!!!!

ps. and i don't use exclamation points liberally.

 

[tmbrown97]

It was my pleasure! Luckily for my first house, I only bought a couple switches and got real familiar with them before automating a second much larger home - that's where I really got to know the system inside and out.

The one area I wish I knew more about is Gen2 w/repeaters - I guess for the sake of answering questions... but then again, I guess I'm glad I never had to!

 

[guy999]

well apparently upb is not bulletproof, because my computer can only occasionally see my light switches in my media room, despite having a repeater installed into my electric panel. I have a call into my vendor but it is disappointing, when it works, it's great, but when it doesn't work it's very frustrating.

when i run upstart sometimes it finds the lights and sometimes it doesn't very odd.

 

[tmbrown97]

Simply Automated switches aren't compatible with repeaters - they need the Phase Coupler - try the one made by them. If you have room, the panel mount one is the best way to go and is actually pretty easy to install. You might do fine with simple plug-in ones like the dryer or range mount ones, but the closer to the panel the better.

Also I had almost zero issues with noise on my powerline, except I had one noisy device on the same branch circuit as my UPB CIM. Of course this didn't show as detectable noise, but once I put the load behind a noise filter all was well (it was a DirecTV power injector).

 

[guy999]

Simply Automated switches aren't compatible with repeaters - they need the Phase Coupler - try the one made by them. If you have room, the panel mount one is the best way to go and is actually pretty easy to install. You might do fine with simple plug-in ones like the dryer or range mount ones, but the closer to the panel the better.

Also I had almost zero issues with noise on my powerline, except I had one noisy device on the same branch circuit as my UPB CIM. Of course this didn't show as detectable noise, but once I put the load behind a noise filter all was well (it was a DirecTV power injector).

i actually got my electrician to wire in the split phase repeater(pcs-spr) and still i was having this problem. quite odd.

i have 2 panels and one sub panel, and i put the spr into the sub panel for space, but i may end up getting 2 more of those and putting one into each panel, but i can't tell if the software will be smart enough to know which one to go to.

I don't mind buying them i just want it to work every time reliably.

 

[guy999]

A new question, I have 4 sa-us240 light switches and a split phase repeater, is correct that gen 1 SA devices, which is what I believe all of their devices are do not work with repeaters, ie the PCS split phase repeater, so basically i'm not making any difference at all by using the split phase repeater?

is that correct?

 

[guy999]

i do appreciate all of the help here but i'm a bit worried about upb, i went over to my dealer and he checked my system and I have a small amount of noise, so that's what they think is the reason why upb isn't communicating well.

I'm very seriously thinking about taking back all of the upb stuff and switching over to zwave. I have read reviews and know that it's not great, but I just don't know if i can this to work.

the recommendation was that i go through every breaker i have to find where the noise is coming from, so i have about 150 breakers 3 boxes of 50, so i don't really want to do that, and think a mesh network would work better in my house because then i wouldn't have to worry about it.

i also feel like i don't have anyplace to ask this question, if i ask on homeseer then zwave is the best, and if i ask my dealer, they love upb.

 

[JonW]

UPB is generally very good with noise. When I first installed UPB, I was running my PIM through a UPB battery system (unintentional) and it didn't affect it one bit where as my X10 was always killed by the UPS. I even have UPB devices at the end of a branch circuit fed by my pool equipment and my pumps don't even affect it. That said, there are a few items that can affect UPB. With over 60 UPB devices in my house I did not have any problems until I added a Panasonic plasma TV. I have since also added a Panasonic microwave oven and when it runs, it affects it as well. With both of those items on plug-in noise filters, there are no issues.

If you check some of the likely culprits in your house, you can probably figure out what is causing the issues. My personal opinion is that Zwave is a headache to install and program.

 

[tmbrown97]

In Post #19 I answered what you asked in post #21 ^_^ - basically SAI products (which I think are great) aren't compatible with repeaters - they're compatible with phase couplers, and they make a nice assortment of options.

Z-Wave has its appeal - and I haven't personally worked with it yet - but I've read so many posts talking about people having to remap their entire houses and basically start-over and reconfigure their devices due to simple network routing issues, controller changes, etc. I just haven't been able to try it. I'd love to hear from someone on the boards who's using 80 or so devices and know their experience! I've been here for about 4 years and haven't yet seen an install like the larger UPB installs.

And 150 breakers? Wow! I have a 4K sq ft house run off about 22 breakers... definitely opposite end of the spectrum! Then again, what I pay for electricity, I wouldn't want to have much capacity!

 

[guy999]

UPB is generally very good with noise. When I first installed UPB, I was running my PIM through a UPB battery system (unintentional) and it didn't affect it one bit where as my X10 was always killed by the UPS. I even have UPB devices at the end of a branch circuit fed by my pool equipment and my pumps don't even affect it. That said, there are a few items that can affect UPB. With over 60 UPB devices in my house I did not have any problems until I added a Panasonic plasma TV. I have since also added a Panasonic microwave oven and when it runs, it affects it as well. With both of those items on plug-in noise filters, there are no issues.

If you check some of the likely culprits in your house, you can probably figure out what is causing the issues. My personal opinion is that Zwave is a headache to install and program.

So I bought a foreclosure with plans to flip and the market still hasn't come back so I have decided to live in it for awhile, but it's 7000 square feet. The problem that I have so many things to check to see if "this device" is causing noise and I would rather just install 10 more light switches and let them repeat..

The way that I understand zwave is that it operates like my sonos, which initially didn't work that well because the devices, i have 6 of them, were too far apart, but I bought a couple more and now it covers the whole house, and I figure that zwave would be the same way, but I guess I need to do some reason because if i'm having to create the routing path myself, then I am not sure I want to go down that route,

I have 3 panels, and 2 of them are completely full and then the last one is about half full, but electricity here in dallas is what i think about 9 cents per kwh..

also i was thinking if I have to buy filters for all of my tvs, i have 8 of them, and all of my receivers, I have 8 of them and then the sonos systems etc, i could get into thousands just on filters.

 

[guy999]

In Post #19 I answered what you asked in post #21 ^_^ - basically SAI products (which I think are great) aren't compatible with repeaters - they're compatible with phase couplers, and they make a nice assortment of options.

Z-Wave has its appeal - and I haven't personally worked with it yet - but I've read so many posts talking about people having to remap their entire houses and basically start-over and reconfigure their devices due to simple network routing issues, controller changes, etc. I just haven't been able to try it. I'd love to hear from someone on the boards who's using 80 or so devices and know their experience! I've been here for about 4 years and haven't yet seen an install like the larger UPB installs.

And 150 breakers? Wow! I have a 4K sq ft house run off about 22 breakers... definitely opposite end of the spectrum! Then again, what I pay for electricity, I wouldn't want to have much capacity!

the reason i asked spefically the repeater question is that I am trying to figure out why simply automated sold me a repeater and dimmer switches that won't work together, that's irritates me.

I do like upb's system and at least have spent at least 20 hours so far so that I feel that I am starting to understand it, and I don't want to junk all of that time spent but i will if it involves me spending weeks figuring out what device is causing noise on the system.

I'm working about 75 hours a week and have a electrician come over every weekend to help me install everything.

 

[tmbrown97]

I can tell you're definitely getting frustrated... Did you buy direct from Simply Automated? or how did they sell you a repeater? Or who did you actually buy from?

I will say that I spent all of 2 hours troubleshooting noise on my system - for me I set the computer where I wanted it to live, then used a laptop to remote to that computer via wireless - then I turned off all my breakers and turned on a continuous connectivity check. Then, I'd just turn a breaker on every couple minutes and watch what happened to the signal. In the end, I filtered one device. When you get to a breaker that introduces a lot of noise, then you go to that branch circuit and unplug everything then plug it back in one at a time.

Known culprits are battery backups, and in my house it was the DirecTV power injector. Usually you can buy 3 or 4 filters and just try them in some common places - like filter out your whole AV rack, etc. In my case a single rack-mount noise conditioning power strip solved all my problems.

 

[guy999]

I can tell you're definitely getting frustrated... Did you buy direct from Simply Automated? or how did they sell you a repeater? Or who did you actually buy from?

I will say that I spent all of 2 hours troubleshooting noise on my system - for me I set the computer where I wanted it to live, then used a laptop to remote to that computer via wireless - then I turned off all my breakers and turned on a continuous connectivity check. Then, I'd just turn a breaker on every couple minutes and watch what happened to the signal. In the end, I filtered one device. When you get to a breaker that introduces a lot of noise, then you go to that branch circuit and unplug everything then plug it back in one at a time.

Known culprits are battery backups, and in my house it was the DirecTV power injector. Usually you can buy 3 or 4 filters and just try them in some common places - like filter out your whole AV rack, etc. In my case a single rack-mount noise conditioning power strip solved all my problems.

i actually live about a mile from automated home lewisville texas warehouse, so I get to buy from them just by walking in. They are really nice and always available for questions during the day, of course that's when I'm in the office, but since it's a simply automated outlet I think they really push simply automated's product, which I understand since they likely know it better than anything else, and I get good pricing on it, but I would pay a little more for the competitor's product if I could get it to work.

I will likely do what you are saying about turning off breakers one at a time, and running a continuous comcheck, but as of last night I lost connectivity now to a different one that previously was working. This is now all of the light switches in my media room are not reading at all. In fact upstart can't even find them.

 

[tmbrown97]

I'm thinking you might be a little confused about the store - it sounds like you're buying from Automated Outlet - which is a distributor for Simply Automated, HAI, PCS, Elk, and a bunch of other products... there's no direct relationship to Simply Automated other than them being one of the products they distribute. They also sell Z-Wave and other products.

Problems in your media cabinet are likely explained by the fact that AV Equipment is noisy... a noise-filtering power strip or power distribution device will often help, or filtering out the whole power strip.

 

[etc6849]

I use Z-Wave in my home with about 50 different devices. Overall, it works as advertised. However, it does require additional steps to set it up.

The one thing I don't like about it is that it gets slow. For example, if I send individual commands to 10-20 lights, it will take some time before the last light goes off. This can be alleviated by programming scenes. The controller then triggers a scene and all 10-20 lights change state at the same time. However, then it takes a while for the confirmation packets (sent one node at a time) to reach my PC so that my PC knows all lights are off.

There's also the case of the missing dimmer! Since most z-wave in-wall dimmers rely on the bulb to complete a standby circuit (providing standby power to the dimmer), a node can disappear from the network when the bulb burns out. This reeks havoc on a mesh network and will cause issues with neighboring nodes until the light bulb is replaced. However, supposedly after so many failures, the network should self heal.

Overall, Z-Wave isn't a bad option assuming you space your nodes well and use a good setup tool. If everything is setup properly, I would be surprised if you received more than a 1/5000 command failure rate. Most HA systems support Z-Wave and some are very user friendly such as the Vera MiCasaVerde. There's also more Z-Wave devices made than any other type of protocol/technology and it is very easy to retrofit with Z-Wave.

RadioRa2 might be another worth looking at, but I'm not sure how open the documentation is or how much more it is compared to Z-Wave.