Not another ELK vs HAI question !

[Ckerch]

I have not posted much but have been following posts in the background. I know there have been many posts about which is, better …. HAI vs. ELK but I have to bring it up again, but would like to get an opinion of which may be better in my application.
 
A little bit about my security/ home automation
Home automation software - Homeseer
I have a 3,000 sqft  house that  I have hardwired to homeroom:
Present

• 20 windows and 4 doors with contacts
• 4 Bosch motion detector
• 4 glass breakage detectors
• 4 (4 wire ) smoke detectors
• 3  Kwikset  Zwave locks
• Leviton Zwave dimmers, switches (zone cap able)and plugs
• 4 Sonos connect:amps
• Honeywell  thermostats with Redlink

Future

• Android tablets/smartphones for system access
• More Zwave switches/dimmers
• Garage door sensors
• Video camera’s
• Outside motion detectors
• Watering system control
• Water detectors
• Movie/video server through DLNA or other means

I am a novice at programming (some Basic, C and excel macro programming experience)
I have been looking at both ELK and HAI Omni pro. With HAI increasing their price the balance may cost wise tip me toward ELK except Worthington will give me the old price if ordered before end of month. So cost may not be an issue if I order soon. My one concern is with HAI increasing price and the price of omnitouch being much more expensive than the navigator touchscreen by ELK, additional purchases could end up costing me much more if going with HAI.
Now I get to my questions:

1. With me being a novice at programming, is one better or easier to program?
2. In a past post, there seems to be a problem with the Homeseer plugin for HAI. Is the problem with the communication port or some other problem? Has anyone had a work around?
3. Both have been around for some time so I am sure the reliability is good, but is one better troubleshooting issues?
4. With HAI being bought by Leviton, do you think the DIY support will dry up?
5. Does it really make a difference what hardware I am using  if I am using Homeseer as a home automation controller?

I have learned a lot reading the posts and can’t wait to get a system. Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Carl

 

[picta]

If you are not a programmer and want to use Homeseer I would recommend Elk. I had both panels with HS, and the Elk plugin was a lot more stable. I still use HAI with Homeseer, but wrote my own script using HaikuHelper. It is likely that with Leviton's acquisition the HAI protocol will drift even further away from the current HS plugin. Alternatively, there are other software controllers like CQS that offer better support for Omni panels.

 

[Frunple]

I would think hard about your question 5. There are some really good alarm panels, Ademco and DSC to name a couple, that can be just as good since you are using HS (or any other software) since HS will be doing most of your automation.
Could save even more and get the same functions by going away from HAI/Elk.

 

[ano]

I would think hard about your question 5. There are some really good alarm panels, Ademco and DSC to name a couple, that can be just as good since you are using HS (or any other software) since HS will be doing most of your automation.
Could save even more and get the same functions by going away from HAI/Elk.

While that is true, in theory,  have found out that the reality is HomeSeer is a PC, and PCs are not 100% reliable.  I no longer use HomeSeer, but on several occasions I returned to my house only to find HomeSeer crashed, and my lights, and/or thermostats at completely wrong temps.  Since then I have put lots of code on my HAI panel, and it has never ever failed. 
 
I also agree that HomeSeer and HAI are not a good combination. It has nothing to do with HAI. Its the fact that HomeSeer has never taken the time to design a network based interface for the HAI panel.  I use CQC now which does use a network based connection, and whose author does care about reliability, and it all works great.

 

[Frunple]

Cracks me up when people always find a way to bad mouth PC's. Fact is, anything can fail just as easily as a PC can. I've been running Elve on a pc for years and never had one failure. It's all in how YOU plan. UPS connected to all PC's and controlled by Elve works wonders.

 

[picta]

Cracks me up when people always find a way to bad mouth PC's. Fact is, anything can fail just as easily as a PC can. I've been running Elve on a pc for years and never had one failure. It's all in how YOU plan. UPS connected to all PC's and controlled by Elve works wonders.

 If you were able to achieve 100% reliability with your PC solution, then kudos to you. But most people have a different experience. My first hardware controller, Stargate, is still running since 2000 without a single crash, but I am on my 6th PC dedicated to home automation, and yes they crashed, rebooted and died on multiple occasions. A good UPS is as expensive as a PC itself and even then cannot hold power for too long. HAI panel can run 12 hours on a single battery and 24 on two.
 
So just as ano I have moved all my basic but critical HA functions to the HAI panel, so that my lights, thermostats and shades are always operational, while keeping more advanced stuff running on a PC. Another benefit of using HA panel is it is faster in processing motion-to-light actions, at least when compared with running the same rules in Homeseer. Even then some lights turn on with visible delay, so I wired a few motion sensors directly to my lighting system.

 

[Frunple]

 If you were able to achieve 100% reliability with your PC solution, then kudos to you. But most people have a different experience. My first hardware controller, Stargate, is still running since 2000 without a single crash, but I am on my 6th PC dedicated to home automation, and yes they crashed, rebooted and died on multiple occasions. A good UPS is as expensive as a PC itself and even then cannot hold power for too long. HAI panel can run 12 hours on a single battery and 24 on two.
 
So just as ano I have moved all my basic but critical HA functions to the HAI panel, so that my lights, thermostats and shades are always operational, while keeping more advanced stuff running on a PC. Another benefit of using HA panel is it is faster in processing motion-to-light actions, at least when compared with running the same rules in Homeseer. Even then some lights turn on with visible delay, so I wired a few motion sensors directly to my lighting system.

My point is your OP can, and will eventually, fail just as any PC will.

 

[Ckerch]

My plans to increase the PC reliablity is to run a hardware watchdog timer, raid array for the harddrives, plenty of ram and good cooling fans of critical components like the CPU.  I use to work in testlab were the PC's were running 24/7 and using this approach yelded very good results. Of course, stable software is a must. Most likely will use XP pro. It has been arround for along time so alot of the bugs has been worked out. Hoping that the Homeseer pro version 2 has the same thing were the bugs have been worked out. Not planning on going with the new version for a while. Will see how that will go. Would like it if on every reboot I get some notification like email or message pop up. Not sure if Homeseer can do it but sure there is some way.
 
Even with that I would like my mission critical stuff like security, flood detection, smoke detector ...etc, I want to have either the HAI or ELK handle. I would like the stuff like user interface, watering system, video streaming ...etc handle by the PC. My thermostat is controlled by Honeywell and connects to the internet through Redlink.
 
I like the idea of the fastness of HAI controlling motion-to-lights instead of having the homeseer. Especially, with my lights being Z Wave and from what I understand, the more nodes I have the slower it will get. Would HAI have the edge over ELK in aspect?

 

[pete_c]

I went with the HAI panel mostly because of its footprint many years ago such that I installed a second HAI OPII for the same reason. 
 
Its been some over 10 years now. 
 
I started using Homeseer in 1998  maybe some 4 years before installation of the HAI OPII panel.
 
Over the years I did have some hardware issues which shut down the HS box; IE: a CPU fan going bad and the "bursting" capacitor thing.  Software wise too there have been some hiccups along the way.  One other issue would be the software "boot" and "reboot" thing which only was corrected with a manual restoral of the configuration / software et al. (I still did have a hardware watch dog but a software boot reboot thing would entail a manual intervention anyways).
 
The above noted and a maybe some 6-7 years ago built a duplicate piece of hardware; haven't really ever needed it and did aquire a second license for another box.  Today I have two HS boxes running full time (testing second box).
 
I do a bit different though and manage the "heartbeat" of the home; personally now not really considered automation with the HAI OPII panel; lighting, HVAC, et al with the HAI OPII box and use Homeseer to provide the checks and balances plus much more lately. The HAI OPii panel still talks X10, Z-Wave and UPB; concurrent with the Homeseer box (and it also talks Insteon).  The Homeseer to HAI OPII serial interface / plugin has not been upgraded in over 10 years and at best is marginally useful.   (I also though utilize HAI Omnitouch screens which provide my direct interface to the OPII panel).
 
The above noted I do connect some over 16 serial and USB devices to Homeseer alway pushing it a bit (think its like 25 devices today) and lately have connected some 15 touchscreen devices to it.  I get nowhere the speed of the Omnitouch response times with the Homeseer network connected touchscreens but I can create a similiar in appearance touchscreen for wintel, linux, android and apple touchscreens; which is a unique feature.  I have 4 boxes configured for HS today and have two running 24/7.
 
I have compared response time speeds and HAI OPII to hardware is much faster.  That and I have also installed direct side mounted on the Homeseer box applications which talk to hardware and those are faster than running plugins with hardware connected.
 
I personally have never used software or wireless devices for security purposes (life and saftey stuff) but then my roots (embedded alarm panel "do what")  was an alarm panel that I installed sometime in the 80's with some over 32 zones, TTS and X10 all running on an embedded software (it was a bit large). 
 
BTW many never failed pieces of my hardware connected to the HAI panel are ELK devices.  That said though I used Elk devices way a long time ago before installation of the HAI OPII panel.  IE: I even have an elk device connected in my automobile for a blue tooth module that I had to modify (came from the EU) in a car that I purchased in 2001.  It is working better and offers way more features that the BT module in a similiar car which is just a couple of years old.  I still have the automobile and it mostly sits right now with some 30 K miles on the odometer.
 
Other than folks that have utilized both panels you will get somewhat biased opinions of which is better as they both offer a great deal of features; Spanky / ELK make a great combination and offer very good support.  HAI has been absorbed by Leviton which can be beneficial or not beneficial depending on your point of view. 

 

[picta]

I don't think HAI has an edge over ELK with z-wave, they both use Leviton interface.

 

[Ckerch]

I do a bit different though and manage the "heartbeat" of the home; personally now not really considered automation with the HAI OPII panel; lighting, HVAC, et al with the HAI OPII box and use Homeseer to provide the checks and balances plus much more lately. The HAI OPii panel still talks X10, Z-Wave and UPB; concurrent with the Homeseer box (and it also talks Insteon).  The Homeseer to HAI OPII serial interface / plugin has not been upgraded in over 10 years and at best is marginally useful.   (I also though utilize HAI Omnitouch screens which provide my direct interface to the OPII panel).
 
 
I personally have never used software or wireless devices for security purposes (life and saftey stuff) but then my roots (embedded alarm panel "do what")  was an alarm panel that I installed sometime in the 80's with some over 32 zones, TTS and X10 all running on an embedded software (it was a bit large). 
 
 
Other than folks that have utilized both panels you will get somewhat biased opinions of which is better as they both offer a great deal of features; Spanky / ELK make a great combination and offer very good support.  HAI has been absorbed by Leviton which can be beneficial or not beneficial depending on your point of view. 

 
The “Heartbeat” approach is kind of how I see my system going. Critical tasks are handled by the HAI or ELK. The Homeseer or other PC based HA software would be the user interface and more like a supervisor of the system. At least that is my thought right now.
 
I agree about hardwire and don’t plan on using any wireless for security.
 
I am sure that both systems Elk and HAI are good and reliability is equal. I do use Leviton Zwave switches with great success, but with Leviton purchasing HAI, HAI name going away and prices going up,  future DYI support is a concern.
 
It may not be an Omnitouch but Elk did release there Navigator touch panel, which is a nice display and is significant cheaper. However, this is probably an apples to oranges comparison.
 
What does make it hard is HAI uses more of an integrated approach, which is nice. However, it may not be as much of an issue because my thermostats are Honeywell with access to them over there Redlink and for music is through Sonos, both proprietary systems. But still nice
 
Along with those items, I am leaning toward the Elk M1. I have until tomorrow before HAI prices go up if bought through Worthington to make up my mind
 
With the release of Homeseer 3.0 beta released, has anyone tried it with either system?
 
Thanks again for the input
Carl