Personal Windows XP & Linux experiences

[86turbodsl]

Slackware, ARCH linux. Linux, because after you get over the learning curve, it's much easier to use than Windows.

And finally, because my Linux server has been running without a reinstall or really any maintenance at all for about 5 years.
Try that with XP.

You are comparing apples with oranges here, XP is rock solid when using proper drivers, and if you load a GUI environment on a Linux machine, XP can actually outperform Linux. Both operating systems are very good (I use all of them), each can run for years when properly configured, and they both have their strengths and weaknesses. However, if you are keeping up with your security patches, you are definitely doing maintenance, Linux is not some magic solution.

I still recommend XP Pro as the solution here, it will be supported until at least 2014. It's a proven platform. I actually used Windows 2003 Server for my home automation for a long time, but there just is no benefit in doing so, and rebuilt the machine with XP Pro.

WHS is not a bad solution, but it is just a crippled Windows Server, and after some of the bugs I have seen (data corruption, etc.), I would rely on a 3rd party solution for backups anyways.

What security patches? You'd have to be a fool to have a file server open ported to the internet. Nobody is downloading anything onto the server, so it doesn't really need "security patches" does it?

In my experience, Windows XP is hardly rock solid no matter what you do with it. Drivers - I hear that all the time on windows. Get the latest drivers. Feh. Had enough of that claptrap. I have to put another couple of hours into my kid's Winxp box, because a file just spontaneously disappeared, like clockwork about every 6 months. I will never get the wasted hours of my life back that are spent on fixing Windows XP every 6 months, including about 100+ security "updates" that have to be reinstalled every time and all the software on top of it. The fewer the better thanks.

 

[electron]

Slackware, ARCH linux. Linux, because after you get over the learning curve, it's much easier to use than Windows.

And finally, because my Linux server has been running without a reinstall or really any maintenance at all for about 5 years.
Try that with XP.

You are comparing apples with oranges here, XP is rock solid when using proper drivers, and if you load a GUI environment on a Linux machine, XP can actually outperform Linux. Both operating systems are very good (I use all of them), each can run for years when properly configured, and they both have their strengths and weaknesses. However, if you are keeping up with your security patches, you are definitely doing maintenance, Linux is not some magic solution.

I still recommend XP Pro as the solution here, it will be supported until at least 2014. It's a proven platform. I actually used Windows 2003 Server for my home automation for a long time, but there just is no benefit in doing so, and rebuilt the machine with XP Pro.

WHS is not a bad solution, but it is just a crippled Windows Server, and after some of the bugs I have seen (data corruption, etc.), I would rely on a 3rd party solution for backups anyways.

What security patches? You'd have to be a fool to have a file server open ported to the internet. Nobody is downloading anything onto the server, so it doesn't really need "security patches" does it?

In my experience, Windows XP is hardly rock solid no matter what you do with it. Drivers - I hear that all the time on windows. Get the latest drivers. Feh. Had enough of that claptrap. I have to put another couple of hours into my kid's Winxp box, because a file just spontaneously disappeared, like clockwork about every 6 months. I will never get the wasted hours of my life back that are spent on fixing Windows XP every 6 months, including about 100+ security "updates" that have to be reinstalled every time and all the software on top of it. The fewer the better thanks.

You'd have to be a fool to think that you can only get attacked if you are opening your ports Your network's security is only as good as the weakest link. As for XP not being stable, I have installed XP on hundreds, if not thousands, of PC's, and I have yet to run into a stability problem that wasn't caused by user error. In this case, you mentioned it was your kid's PC, which could explain the issues you are having (kids like games, and most of the time, games don't play nice with the OS). Family/Kid's PC's tend to be the ones with the most problems. I highly recommend you install SteadyState, which will make your life much easier.

disclaimer: this is just my opinion, based on many years maintaining enterprise and home networks, pc's and servers. I have no interested in starting an 'OS war', and the OP has now made his choice.

 

[86turbodsl]

You'd have to be a fool to think that you can only get attacked if you are opening your ports Your network's security is only as good as the weakest link. As for XP not being stable, I have installed XP on hundreds, if not thousands, of PC's, and I have yet to run into a stability problem that wasn't caused by user error. In this case, you mentioned it was your kid's PC, which could explain the issues you are having (kids like games, and most of the time, games don't play nice with the OS). Family/Kid's PC's tend to be the ones with the most problems. I highly recommend you install SteadyState, which will make your life much easier.

disclaimer: this is just my opinion, based on many years maintaining enterprise and home networks, pc's and servers. I have no interested in starting an 'OS war', and the OP has now made his choice.

Please explain how the intruder will be getting through the firewall without open ports. Because I don't know how it would happen. "security" implies that some outside entity is trying to get into your network. Of course this does not prevent insider mischief. My kid is young enough that he can't install software. The only games on the PC is what I allow. It was the same before he was old enough to use it. The wife/my laptop gets a basic install of XP and no other real software and it slowly degrades over time until it needs to be re-installed. Takes 6 months to a year. There's no games on it. Just email and a browser.

I'm not a sysadmin. I'm a mechanical engineer. I'm just a regular user with a somewhat higher technical aptitude. I've been using Linux and Windows for most of my adult life. My data point is that
Linux is easier to maintain. If there's a problem with Windows, you can "go get a new driver" or "go look for a debugging tool" etc. If there's a problem with Linux, typically I compiled the software, and usually have the source code. I can track down the original writer pretty easy. Joe [email protected] is a whole lot easier than microsoft.com tech support, please leave credit card number, etc.

The fact that you have installed Windows XP thousands of times implies that you are a IT professional, and it's therefore your job to know the ins and outs. The average joe blow will not have those resources. They use Windows because they must. They don't want the learning curve. Or the software won't run on Linux or Wine or whatever.

The other data points I have are how we use all Win xp here at work and we keep 4 IT guys busy running around installing patches, reinstalling OS's, and watching blue screens all day. Nothing but Microsoft XP / Office on Dells here. My personal PC, which has nothing but stock install and Pro/Engineer on it got flaky about 6 months ago and needed a reinstall. Just like the rest of them here.

Not trying to start an OS war here either, it's easy to do. But just want to emphasize that Windows is not always the best fit for this application.

 

[MikeB]

OK, I'll bite.

Please explain how the intruder will be getting through the firewall without open ports. Because I don't know how it would happen. "security" implies that some outside entity is trying to get into your network. Of course this does not prevent insider mischief.

A PC inside your LAN that's infected. An application installed on your server that accesses the internet. A vulnerability in your firewall.

My kid is young enough that he can't install software. The only games on the PC is what I allow. It was the same before he was old enough to use it. The wife/my laptop gets a basic install of XP and no other real software and it slowly degrades over time until it needs to be re-installed. Takes 6 months to a year. There's no games on it. Just email and a browser.

Have you seen the crap that gets installed on PCs from "email and browsers" nowadays? I don't know about your wife, but I see it every day - people click on crap links, open bogus emails, visit malicious sites, and install lots of "smiley" apps on their PCs all the time creating problems on their PCs - just from "email and a browser". Now, you're right in that 99.99% of this garbage is Windows-only (afterall, Windows is BY FAR the largest target audience), but that doesn't mean a Windows PC being used as a server is susceptible to things like this.

I'm not a sysadmin. I'm a mechanical engineer. I'm just a regular user with a somewhat higher technical aptitude. I've been using Linux and Windows for most of my adult life. My data point is that Linux is easier to maintain. If there's a problem with Windows, you can "go get a new driver" or "go look for a debugging tool" etc. If there's a problem with Linux, typically I compiled the software, and usually have the source code. I can track down the original writer pretty easy. Joe [email protected] is a whole lot easier than microsoft.com tech support, please leave credit card number, etc.

It sounds that you're far more experienced with Linux than Windows (or have a better understanding of it anyway) - and that's fine. Personally, if I have a problem with a Windows PC, I'm not blindly looking for "a new driver". I have the troubleshooting skills, 99% of the time, to find the issue and fix it. It might be a new driver, it might be a misbehaving app, or it might be garbage installed on that PC. All without compiling an application or looking at source code.

The fact that you have installed Windows XP thousands of times implies that you are a IT professional, and it's therefore your job to know the ins and outs. The average joe blow will not have those resources. They use Windows because they must. They don't want the learning curve. Or the software won't run on Linux or Wine or whatever.

Correct. Most people use Windows because it's easier to use, and the apps they need to use exist. There's nothing wrong with that.

The other data points I have are how we use all Win xp here at work and we keep 4 IT guys busy running around installing patches, reinstalling OS's, and watching blue screens all day. Nothing but Microsoft XP / Office on Dells here. My personal PC, which has nothing but stock install and Pro/Engineer on it got flaky about 6 months ago and needed a reinstall. Just like the rest of them here.

If you have a PC with Windows XP, only stock apps, and the apps are well written - there's nothing that should go 'flaky' in 6 months unless you have a hardware issue - in which case a fresh OS install would not help you. If your PCs are 'going flaky', requiring a clean OS install every 6 months, someone is installing garbage on them, or you are running poorly written apps.

Those IT guys are running around because their users are clicking on every link they receive via email, opening malicious attachments, and visiting questionable web sites. I know, because I deal with it all the time.

Not trying to start an OS war here either, it's easy to do. But just want to emphasize that Windows is not always the best fit for this application.

I agree, but the reasons and examples you are stating are either incorrect or overblown.

 

[86turbodsl]

Have you seen the crap that gets installed on PCs from "email and browsers" nowadays? I don't know about your wife, but I see it every day - people click on crap links, open bogus emails, visit malicious sites, and install lots of "smiley" apps on their PCs all the time creating problems on their PCs - just from "email and a browser". Now, you're right in that 99.99% of this garbage is Windows-only (afterall, Windows is BY FAR the largest target audience), but that doesn't mean a Windows PC being used as a server is susceptible to things like this.

The wife knows enough not to click on spam. Still doesn't affect linux server. no maintenance required still.

It sounds that you're far more experienced with Linux than Windows (or have a better understanding of it anyway) - and that's fine. Personally, if I have a problem with a Windows PC, I'm not blindly looking for "a new driver". I have the troubleshooting skills, 99% of the time, to find the issue and fix it. It might be a new driver, it might be a misbehaving app, or it might be garbage installed on that PC. All without compiling an application or looking at source code.

Actually, if you have good resources on troubleshooting windows besides a google search, I'd like to hear about it. Anything that can reduce my time spent on it is good.

If you have a PC with Windows XP, only stock apps, and the apps are well written - there's nothing that should go 'flaky' in 6 months unless you have a hardware issue - in which case a fresh OS install would not help you. If your PCs are 'going flaky', requiring a clean OS install every 6 months, someone is installing garbage on them, or you are running poorly written apps.

Those IT guys are running around because their users are clicking on every link they receive via email, opening malicious attachments, and visiting questionable web sites. I know, because I deal with it all the time.

Seen it time and time again. On PC's locked down to where you can't install anything. They just bog down and get flaky. Reinstall always fixes it. <shrugs>

I agree, but the reasons and examples you are stating are either incorrect or overblown.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion.

Dan, is there any way to split this discussion off into a new topic? I don't want to continue bogging the OP's questions and responses down with this OT chatter. SORRY!

 

[Paul]

The wife knows enough not to click on spam. Still doesn't affect linux server. no maintenance required still.

You must be the only guy in the world who has taught his wife not to click on any bad links. Maybe we should stop asking you about windows and start asking you how they think. It seems you've gotten them figured out.

Actually, if you have good resources on troubleshooting windows besides a google search, I'd like to hear about it. Anything that can reduce my time spent on it is good.

I usually start with error logs if its a problem I haven't seen before. I also check update levels, installed software, etc to look for known conflicts. Microsoft knowledge base (support.microsoft.com) is often a good place to look. I also will often post my particular issue in the CT chat room to bounce it off the other sysadmins.

Seen it time and time again. On PC's locked down to where you can't install anything. They just bog down and get flaky. Reinstall always fixes it. <shrugs>

"Bog Down" is caused by one of 2 things. Hardware problems, or operator error. No exceptions.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion.

I posted mine earlier but it got moderated =\

Dan, is there any way to split this discussion off into a new topic? I don't want to continue bogging the OP's questions and responses down with this OT chatter. SORRY!

Though we may lose what's already been said, what's stopping you from creating an "OS Wars" thread in the Wiring closet?

 

[electron]

Topic has been split.

The wife knows enough not to click on spam. Still doesn't affect linux server. no maintenance required still.

While I could go on and on about this, I do want to make one thing clear. It's not the 'spam' you have to worry about, it's the sites that look innocent you have to worry about. Imagine one of your family members using google to find the lyrics of a certain song, and following that link. It's almost a guarantee that something nasty will try to get into your system, without having to open your ports, or anyone noticing it before it's too late.

I have been running XP without any 'protection' for years, and I have yet to experience virus/adware or stability issues. And I do push my machines very hard. Linux distributions need as much maintenance as XP, if not more (Latest version of Ubuntu broke bluetooth support is just an example). I like both Linux based operating systems, and Windows XP, both have their strengths and weaknesses, but you make it sound like XP has some major issues, which IMO, it does not.

As for tips, install SteadyState on your family computers, and you will be very happy.

 

[86turbodsl]

"Bog Down" is caused by one of 2 things. Hardware problems, or operator error. No exceptions.

Operator error being that someone didn't go and clean out some files somewhere? Or what? In my opinion, you shouldn't need to go clean
your system for it to stay functional. Like defragging.

 

[86turbodsl]

Topic has been split.

The wife knows enough not to click on spam. Still doesn't affect linux server. no maintenance required still.

While I could go on and on about this, I do want to make one thing clear. It's not the 'spam' you have to worry about, it's the sites that look innocent you have to worry about. Imagine one of your family members using google to find the lyrics of a certain song, and following that link. It's almost a guarantee that something nasty will try to get into your system, without having to open your ports, or anyone noticing it before it's too late.

I have been running XP without any 'protection' for years, and I have yet to experience virus/adware or stability issues. And I do push my machines very hard. Linux distributions need as much maintenance as XP, if not more (Latest version of Ubuntu broke bluetooth support is just an example). I like both Linux based operating systems, and Windows XP, both have their strengths and weaknesses, but you make it sound like XP has some major issues, which IMO, it does not.

As for tips, install SteadyState on your family computers, and you will be very happy.

I have a freeware antivirus software on the XP boxes. It gets updated every day. Granted, XP is MUCH better than 98 or 95 was, but it's still flaky enough to make me annoyed in my opinion.

Thanks for the tip on steadystate, I'll check into it.

 

[MikeB]

Operator error being that someone didn't go and clean out some files somewhere? Or what? In my opinion, you shouldn't need to go clean
your system for it to stay functional. Like defragging.

No. Operator error being someone installed some garbage software on their PC, mucked with some settings without knowing what they were doing, etc. Defrag is automatic on Vista, and can be easily scheduled on XP.

 

[tmbrown97]

As much as I'm afraid to chime in on a controversial topic as this, I do have a few comments I feel compelled to add. My background: I run the IT department for a company in 41 states and 4 countries. I've used every operating system from IBM DOS 1.0 through current. I maintain so many home and office networks it's ridiculous - on every carrier there is.

As I sit here typing (on my MacBook Pro) - I have to say - if you want one or two machines in your house and need them to be able to handle anything that comes up, Windows XP is the ONLY way to go. Of course, the more patience you have and the more you're willing to find "workarounds" - Windows XP is the ONLY operating system that will do everything you want it to, every time. Even Mac owners often still keep a PC around or boot to XP to run Quickbooks or other systems. Web Sites - are always tested and perfected to IE 6/7.

Often PC's get a bad rap because IT departments don't like to spend time troubleshooting - it's easier to grab the latest Ghost image and put the computer back to stock - they don't care about the impact to the end user. Hell, even my own employees exhibit these traits despite my b*tching about it. My wife used to be a sysadmin for EDS on a huge state contract - they wouldn't spend more than 10 minutes troubleshooting before they'd reimage. (*so my wife will never click a link that doesn't make sense... I'm lucky there. Next training topic - don't put the house phone number on every form that asks for a number - to stop the 99% solicitor to 1% real call ratio). That approach irritates the crap out of me though. With very few basic troubleshooting steps, I can fix 97% of all viruses and slow-startup issues in under an hour. 2% require special boot disks to get rid of certain viruses that strap themselves in too early in the boot process. less than 1 percent requires re-imaging. HiJackThis and a basic understanding are all the tools I need.

Honestly, security patches aren't that important if you have perimeter protection (firewall) - but there are certain viruses that can spread rapidly through a basic penetration... those suck.

Either way, sounds like the OP has a preformed opinion towards linux - It doesn't matter what any of us say... he'll forever complain about XP and deal with Linux and defend it, despite the fact that some things will never run on it, and it'll always be that much harder to find support for his issues. To each his own - many Apple users are the same way (but the still have a Windows install running side-by-side).

XP isn't perfect - hell, I've made *a lot* of money thanks to it and previous operating systems - but mainstream is worth a lot.

 

[MikeB]

I've used every operating system from IBM DOS 1.0 through current.

Damn! I only remember as far back as MS-DOS 3.30. Remember how bloated MS-DOS 6.x was???

Just for the record, I'm not against alternative operating systems. God, I remember trucking my Amiga 3000 into my place of work to show off multitasking/pulldown screens, Cinemaware games, the Walker Demo, HAM mode, and IFF files to my boring PC co-workers.

I was such a dork.

 

[upstatemike]

I think there are 2 main groups represented here. There are computer folks who have strong pre-existing opinions about various hardware and operating systems and think it is cool to apply their preferred technology choices to home automation. And then there are automation folks who do not care what PC or OS is used as long as it lets them accomplish the automation tasks they want.

As somebody who falls very much in the second camp I have to say that XP has been the most universal platform for automation stuff. I don't know, and don't really care why, that is just the way it is. I begrudge every second of time I have to spend tweaking a user interface or working around an OS quirk because it is time I am not spending on fun stuff like hooking up new sensors or interfacing a new HA device. I am not willing to try to figure out how to do what I want on Linux, or OSX, or any other platform as long as it is virtually plug and play with XP. And if some other OS becomes the new universal standard for automation I will drop XP in a second and never look back. An OS is just a tool that should be used while it is useful and discarded as soon as it is not. XP may or may not be a good OS, again I don't care, it just happens to be better for automation than Linux, or OSX, or Vista, or Windows Server 2003, or Windows 7, or anything else currently available or announced.

 

[CollinR]

I supply DVRs that run on XP many of them operate headlessly and are remotely maintained. Many run for years without a reboot the record is 5 and was stopped by the ice storm earlier this year when the customer lost power long enough to take it down. I ran on genset power for like 12 days, this wasn't the fault of XP.

Fragmentation also isn't a Windows only thing, anytime you have constantly recycling files of differing sizes you will wind up with fragmentation. How the software generating this was written plays a role, how you configured the hardware plays a role. In either case you can fragment a drive in either system doing basically the same process.

I have not experienced any of the discribed slowdowns over time as mentioned, not even on my kids machine

Sadly I don't have much Linux experience though. Everytime I try to use it I always wind up with hardware issue that effect whatever my goal was. I realize I could buy hardware that has known Linux support however it's far easier to find hardware with XP support (damn near everything).

EDIT:
Oh and none of the Windows fanboys have even chimed in, I have a real dislike for M$!

 

[MikeB]

Fragmentation also isn't a Windows only thing, anytime you have constantly recycling files of differing sizes you will wind up with fragmentation. How the software generating this was written plays a role, how you configured the hardware plays a role. In either case you can fragment a drive in either system doing basically the same process.

Fragmentation is certainly not a Windows-only thing, but Linux's file system is consderably more efficient at handling deletions/additions - so much that defragmenting a Linux volume is rarely needed.

On the other hand, I think defragging a Windows volume is often over-hyped - many people think they'll see a huge performance difference if they run a defrag, but for the majority of users running NTFS file systems the increase in speed is often times negligable.