Possible solution to use existing interconnected smoke alarms to trigger event

[pkarmouche]

I've read that many people hope to find a way to use existing, HV interconnected smoke alarms to trigger an event on their alarm panel. But this is either not permitted, not advisable, or otherwise problematic.

What do you think of this solution? I found this device that "listens" for the typical screeching smoke alarm, and lights up a doorway so you can find your way out. In the case of interconnected smoke alarms, they all sound off if one is triggered, so you would only need one of these devices for the entire home.

It is here, $50: UGH: I'm a new member here, so I can't post links... but you can google "thelightthatsaveslives" for the URL.

With a small amount of "hacking", I would think you could wire a relay into the device where it would otherwise light up its LED's, which would then trigger a zone on your alarm panel if the smoke alarms sound.

Thoughts?

Paul

 

[treo650]

Very interesting.

If the Pros here deem this to work, I will integrate this or something similar into my elk panel.

Currently, for my new construction home, I do not want to touch what the contractors and fire Marshall okayed... So this device seems to integrate the fire alarms with no need to mickey mouse the old

 

[video321]

As someone who was looking into integrating their 120V smokes with a security panel, I can tell you there is a lot of debate about it.
However... one thing is very clear. If you do decide to use something like you mentioned (which is nice since there is no mucking with a dectector itself) make sure you don't have it monitored by a central station. Just 3 days ago I was sitting in my living room when my 120V smokes started screaming - there was no fire. I believe it was because of some dust that was kicked up by my kids playing in the toy room where I had made a bit of a mess. Other than that, I don't know what may have caused it other than the detectors are around 9 yrs. old and need to be replaced.

 

[treo650]

@video

If no central alarm station monitoring the smokes.... What if the worst happens? And Fire trucks are not called in?

(Heaven forbid)

 

[video321]

The fact is most 120V smokes are too sensitive to false alarms. How many times have your smokes gone off when they shouldn't have? Maybe from the last time your cooking caused a little bit of smoke/steam to escape the kitchen? That is not when you want trucks rolling in.

 

[wuench]

If it is something you want to do, there is no need to hack anything or any need for that level of complexity. Just use the GE350cx line of detectors to attach 120v smoke to your panel. A direct wire connection is simpler and more reliable than relying on some hacked sound detection etc. Then have your panel turn on your bedroom lights...

 

[gizzmo]

Smoke alarms are not designed to trigger a monitored alarm panel. Most smoke alarms are a cheap ion type and are prone to false alarms. Do this at your own risk.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

 

[treo650]

Curious - the ADT smoke alarms, don't they dial home to the monitoring station..?

 

[video321]

Don't know what ADT uses, but I would bet they are photoelectric.

 

[Del91574]

I would avoid the proposed unit like the plague. Introducing a whole realm that isn't a nice can of worms to start with. Unit is also not listed for the purpose that is being proposed, nor is a "hack" allowed within code. As far as connecting 120VAC units to a FACP, using the "special" detectors or not, it's introducing sections of non-compliance as well as installing hardware non I/A/W the manufacturer's directions, which is a huge issue for a pro, even more so for a fire alarm system.

It's been brought up as far as what can and can't legally vs. technically be done, but as a pro, I would distance myself greatly from 120VAC smokes and a security panel.

 

[tmbrown97]

What on earth does "code" care about him using a device that in no way affects the installed system, and serves only to let his automation system know so he can trigger lights, events, etc? This constant CODE debate is such BS... many times, people around here have mentioned the special relays that are sold to trigger a 3rd party signaling device, and each time this Code BS comes up - but the device in those cases is being used for exactly what the manufacturer intended them for - to serve to notify other systems.

I think everyone understands and agrees with why these can't be used to make your 120V smokes operate like a FACP - that's rarely debated... but why on earth not let your automation system know so it can take precautions, like turn on all the lights and turn off the HVAC? At long as you're not hacking the smoke detectors themselves or mucking with their wiring *in a non-approved way*, what's the issue?

 

[Del91574]

What on earth does "code" care about him using a device that in no way affects the installed system, and serves only to let his automation system know so he can trigger lights, events, etc? This constant CODE debate is such BS... many times, people around here have mentioned the special relays that are sold to trigger a 3rd party signaling device, and each time this Code BS comes up - but the device in those cases is being used for exactly what the manufacturer intended them for - to serve to notify other systems.

I think everyone understands and agrees with why these can't be used to make your 120V smokes operate like a FACP - that's rarely debated... but why on earth not let your automation system know so it can take precautions, like turn on all the lights and turn off the HVAC? At long as you're not hacking the smoke detectors themselves or mucking with their wiring *in a non-approved way*, what's the issue?

Work,not to bash but, before you go on your soapbox here, please look at what the OP posted.

With a small amount of "hacking", I would think you could wire a relay into the device where it would otherwise light up its LED's, which would then trigger a zone on your alarm panel if the smoke alarms sound.

He was discussing connecting a "hack" or similar to an ALARM PANEL to trigger a zone (or event). Once you connect anything to listed alarm panel, no matter what the intent, it's part of the system, I can't see how any prudent AHJ would view it otherwise, no matter how well intended the useage or functionality were to be implemented.

Ancillary relays and other devices have mentioned ad nauseum in other posts, but using a listed relay to peform other actions is fine and dandy, done all the time and is quite common, just install I/A/W the manufacturer's instructions. If you want to perform shutdown, lighting, or any other fire based event, then drive those events in an appropriate manner, but to do such for the purpose of notification instead of (or inclusive of) driving an event (shutdown, etc.) changes the classification of the controller to a FACP by definition.

To be specific in my case, we've got multiple residancy classed locations with 120V smokes tied to FACP's, with Gentex smokes tripping monitor modules, however the AHJ's never allow them to dump the buildings, just for notification that a specific unit is alarming, nor would they allow any of the relays that are constantly touted for such connections to do such, but out in the halls and around the rest of the building, plenty of addressable devices that'll dump the building. Speaking from experience and real world knowledge and not armchair QB'ing here. Maybe other areas of the country don't enforce as tight and to the letter as I experience here.

 

[tmbrown97]

I think the overwhelmingly important detail that's missing in all that, is that you're doing commercial installs in which you're contracted to put in a system that's required by code to do certain things, and inspected by an AHJ. That's just a totally different world - and the biggest place we've had friction between our opinions is that your answers to homeowner/DIY questions are relevant to other commercial installers, not homeowner/DIYers. This isn't Mike Holt's forums where you're giving professional advice to other installers.

I doubt most home systems, especially DIY systems from those who frequent this forum, would qualify under UL. I know even my own system doesn't specifically because I didn't use an approved mounting bracket in my Leviton can; and there's probably one or two other areas that don't qualify.

And yes, the OP said he wants to "hack" the detector device and use it to drive a relay connected to a zone on his panel... so he's hacking some battery operated device that has nothing to do with his life safety system - if it works or doesn't, no big deal. If you follow these forums, you'll see that people hack all sorts of inputs into their panels to trigger all sorts of crazy automation - this is no different.

I do respect your professional experience - and if I were installing in a commercial facility, I'd do it 100% by the book and probably head your advice 100%... but homeowners/hobbyists just don't... I think many will do the best they can, but something like using the wrong bracket invalidating my UL listing - well, I don't care... but other UL aspects I do care about - such as using correct wiring, separation of non-current-limited wires, using firewire to your smokes *and* at least one keypad, etc... but since no AHJ will ever look at my system, it's just best practice, not a requirement. I'm not in any way suggesting the OP do something like this in a listed apartment complex, but in his own home, it's not about what him and a AHJ will argue about - it's about him adding some convenience features, and as long as he's not in any way putting his system at risk in doing so, there's really no harm.

 

[gizzmo]

In your own home you are free to do as want in a "at your own risk" basis. I have done things in my house that I would not do in a customers house. This has a great deal to do with the fact that I won't sue myself. My word of caution is if a bad idea or method calls emergency responders and they involved in an accident and kill someone on the way. Then it affected other people significantly. Other than that, rock on and have a smoke alarm start the jacuzzi if that's what you want.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

 

[Del91574]

Work,

Yes, a HO can do as they wish with their system, "at their own risk", however reading your statement regarding "best practice" for using something as arbitrary and basic as fire wire...wow, just wow. What happens to the system where it was installed, as you stated, with "best practices" ignored....code requirements notwithstanding, and the house is sold and the next HO, while they have the house inspected, it's not discovered that X or Y is wrong or non-existant on the system and there's a fire where someone is seriously hurt or worse....Hope you have yourself a good lawyer.

I've been involved with residential from my start in the business and have been called to do a foresnsic analysis and report on a bunch of residential systems, in addition to commercial, after a significant event or loss by insurers as well as homeowners. My standpoint is, after a loss happens, when push comes to shove, even if the system was not subject to AHJ approval or inspection, the insurers will not cover a failure or will view a malfunction or system design flaw the same, that being as a means to deny coverage or void a policy. Then you're at the point of calling in someone to either prove or disprove their findings, such as X did not cause a system failure or malfunction or performed as it should or flagrant disregard of code requirements as basic as wire sizing or classification.


A UL certificated system is another ballgame, and frankly, the amount of them out there is few. Not many people or establishments pay the tab for UL (or even FM) to come to the property to inspect and test the system....on your dime. In the case of installing an item, the big picture is "in accordance with the manufacturers instructions". When you field modify an enclosure or device, the point is if something happens and push comes to shove, it's installing equipment in a manner that was not approved of by all the parties involved, again, another way for the insurer to deny coverage or worse, state that was part of the cause of the failure or design criteria leading to the failure mode. As was stated to me in all my years of schooling coming into the industry regarding fire alarm is it's something you don't play with, because if you do, it's not if you're going to hurt someone, it's when.