Question regarding Insteon compatability with X10

[StevenT]

I've read all the Insteon literature, but am still confused on how exactly Insteon works with X10 products.

Here is my situation: I have many of my lights on X10 switches. Unfortunately, some of the lights are presumably on the second phase of the house wiring, and the X10 signal does not get to them. I'm hoping I could get some Insteon switches and controller, and be able to control all my lights (phase 1 and phase 2).

To do this, I would need the Insteon controller to be able to send out Insteon control signals to control the phase 2 lights, but also send out X10 control signals to control the phase 1 lights. It's my understanding that Insteon does not work this way. Instead, Insteon switches can be given X10 addresses. So I could technically put the phase 2 lights on Insteon controllers programmed to respond to X10 commands. However, since Insteon does not send X10 commands over its wireless link, I don't think I could get the X10 signals to the Insteon switches on the phase 2 wiring.

Is the above understanding correct? If so, is there any other solution besides just replacing all my X10 switches with Insteon switches (not economically feasible at the moment).

All help appreciated.
Steve

 

[upstatemike]

I'm having trouble picturing your situation. When you refer to a controller on phase 1, do you mean a tabletop type controller? How many switches are we talking about on phase 1 and phase 2?

The short answer is that you are correct that Insteon cannot be used to bridge X-10 across phases. You can swap your Phase 2 switches to Insteon and use an Insteon controller on phase 1 to control phase 1 X-10 switches and phase 2 Insteon switches.

You can also stick with X-10 and try to solve your problem with a combination of a phase coupler or repeater plus some filters and boosterlincs.

The best solution depends on exactly what you have and what you want to do.

 

[StevenT]

Thanks Upstatemike,

My setup is basic. About a dozen light switches, with about 3 of those on phase 2 circuitry. An X10 controller on phase 1 that receives the wireless remote signal and sends out the control signal over the power lines. A tabletop wireless remote that controls the switches on phase 1 but not phase 2.

If I'm understanding you correctly, I can buy 3 Insteon switches and put my phase 2 lights on them. Then use an Insteon signalinc RF controller plugged into phase 1. Then use an Insteon remote to control the X10 switches on phase 1 via sending control signals over the powerlines, and control the Insteon switches on phase 2 by wireless control signals.

Is this understanding correct? You control the Insteon switches directly via wireless, thus you don't need two signalinc RF controllers, one on each phase?

If the above is correct, can the Insteon system be setup so that when you push a button on the Insteon wireless remote, the Insteon system will issue both the X10 signal via powerline and, at the same time, transmit Insteon signals via wireless (i.e., the Insteon system is not just limited to its switches being capable of responding to X10 signals, the Insteon controller can also transmit X10 control signals)?

Thanks for your assistance.
Steve

 

[upstatemike]

I'm still not sure we are on the same page (I get confused by terminology sometimes and need to make sure I understand the question).

When you refer to an Insteon wireless remote I get the impression you are thinking that Insteon switches receive RF signals directly. Insteon works on powerline signals similiar to X-10. While there will likely soon be an Insteon wireless controller that works with the Insteon RF receivers the same way X-10 receivers work with X-10 wireless stuff, they are not currently available.

To clarify:

Insteon switches will work with Insteon and X-10 powerline signals but do not directly receive Insteon or X-10 RF signals.

Insteon RF modules will convert any Insteon powerline signals they see to Insteon RF signals and any Insteon RF signals they see back to Insteon powerline signals. They do not do anything with X-10 powerline or X-10 RF signals.

There is not currently a wireless handheld transmitter for sending Insteon RF commands.

An Insteon plug-in controller can transmit both Insteon powerline signals and X-10 powerline signals so they can control both Insteon and X-10 switches over the powerline.

If you have an Insteon RF modules plugged in to both phase 1 and phase 2 then the module on phase 1 convert Insteon powerline signals to Insteon RF signals and the module on phase 2 will convert the Insteon RF signals back to Insteon powerline signals so the Insteon switches on phase 2 can be controlled.

If you use a handheld wireless X-10 controller to generate an X-10 powerline signal via an X-10 receiver on phase 1, there is no simple way to use Insteon to get that signal to phase 2. You would need to use the X-10 to Insteon translator module to convert the signal to Insteon and a production version of that has not yet been released.

Am I on the right track for answering your question?

 

[AccessX10]

If I'm understanding you correctly, I can buy 3 Insteon switches and put my phase 2 lights on them. Then use an Insteon signalinc RF controller plugged into phase 1. Then use an Insteon remote to control the X10 switches on phase 1 via sending control signals over the powerlines, and control the Insteon switches on phase 2 by wireless control signals.

Is this understanding correct? You control the Insteon switches directly via wireless, thus you don't need two signalinc RF controllers, one on each phase?

StevenT,

This might help clarify a couple things... X10 signals don't transmit over the Signalinc RF's, just INSTEON. SwitchLinc's don't communicate over RF, just the power line.

So if you switched to just using INSTEON, you would still need two Signalinc RF's to couple phase. If not, you will still need an X10 phase coupler.

 

[BLH]

StevenT.;
Have you tried a simple X10 coupler to get to the other phase?
As others have pointed out. You would need 2 RFLincs. One on each phase. In your terminology. Phase 1s RFLinc would relay Insteon messages to the Phase 2s RFLinc. One more thing to think about. All the Insteon and Icon switches need a Neutral wire in the switch box. If your original X10s only used two. They may not work as a neutral is needed. That is why for now I have 2 X10 wall switches still in use and my Insteon & Icons are all doing X10 Primary and Scenes Addresses. No RF remotes for Insteon yet and I was not going to give Smarthome $99 for a BETA X10 Insteon Translator Module.

 

[upstatemike]

...and I was not going to give Smarthome $99 for a BETA X10 Insteon Translator Module.

A wise move. Mine has not been doing so well lately and the Beta team kind of stopped responding to emails.

 

[StevenT]

Thanks for all the replies.
I think I understand everything now. However, just to make sure, would the following scenerio work?

Phase 1 wiring:
1) Multiple lights plugged into X10 switches (presumably 3-prong so they are grounded/neutral, otherwise they may not work with Insteon system).
2) An Insteon SignaLinc signal enhancer connected to Phase 1 wiring (this is the device that receives wireless signals from the Insteon ControLinc tabletop controller and presumably converts to power line signals).

Phase 2 wiring:
1) Several lights plugged into Insteon LampLinc switches.
2) An Insteon SignaLinc signal enhancer connected to Phase 2 wiring.

ControLinc Tabletop Controller:
Then I could program the Insteon ControLinc tabletop controller so that upon pressing one or more buttons on the tabletop controller, the controller would do both of the following:
1) Send a wireless signal to the Insteon SignaLincs, which in turn would transmit an Insteon signal over the phase 2 wiring to control the lights plugged into Insteon LampLinc switches.
2) Send a wireless signal to the Insteon SignaLincs, which in turn would transmit X10 signals over the phase 1 wiring to control the lights plugged into X10 switches.

I've read all the Insteon material, and based on that, I think the above scenerio is possible. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


New questions
Lastly, all of the Insteon material is unclear on a couple of things. The literature says the tabletop controller can be programmed so one button can control one Insteon module or all Insteon modules, but what about a subset of all the modules?
Thus, the following 2 questions:

1) Can any one button on the ControLinc tabletop controller be assigned more than one Insteon address?
Thus, when you press the button, multiple LampLinc switches will control multiple lights (but not all lights). Or, for example, Button A is assigned Insteon address 1. Button B is assigned Insteon address 2 and 3.

2) Can any one button on the ControLinc tabletop controller be assigned BOTH an Insteon address AND an X10 address?
Thus, when you press the button, both a LampLinc-controlled light turns on, AND an X10-controlled light comes on.

If scenerios 1 and 2 above are not possible, then I presume you need an Insteon PowerLinc controller for doing macros. Correct?

Reason for the above approach:
I know I could buy an X10 coupler, but I would rather not invest any more money in X10 equipement since I ultimately want to convert everything over to Insteon. Switching everything over to Insteon right now would be the best approach, but not economical.

Once again, thanks to everyone for all the guidance. It's appreciated.
Oh, and sorry for the incredibly long post.
Steve

 

[SmartLabsMike]

Steve,

Here are answers to your questions.

The literature says the tabletop controller can be programmed so one button can control one Insteon module or all Insteon modules, but what about a subset of all the modules?
Yes, you can have it control 1, 2, 3, or up to 417 Insteon-enabled devices. It does not have to be all or 1.

1) Can any one button on the ControLinc tabletop controller be assigned more than one Insteon address?
Thus, when you press the button, multiple LampLinc switches will control multiple lights (but not all lights). Or, for example, Button A is assigned Insteon address 1. Button B is assigned Insteon address 2 and 3.
No need to think of them as addresses. Since each device has a unique address you "link" them to one another. So yes, you can do what you described above. Button A can control a lamp or several lamps and Button B can control the same lamp(s) if you want to have it part of a different scene.

2) Can any one button on the ControLinc tabletop controller be assigned BOTH an Insteon address AND an X10 address?
Yes. By default the ControLinc only sends Insteon, however open the cover and you can easily program X10 addresses to each button. And they do not have to be sequential addresses.

 

[StevenT]

Thanks Mike,
That answers all of my questions.
I guess I'll be ordering some Insteon equipment soon.