Recommendations for monitoring companies

[apostolakisl]

Lou,

Respectfully, your reasoning, information and understandings are incorrect. Probability has nothing to do with this at this point, it the nature of how cellular works and whether or not you feel comfortable in taking the chance of connecting a critical system like an alarm to a glorified cell phone with no feedback to the host system. I'd offer for you to come visit some of our larger installations and sites to provide some real world examples to see how the hardware performs vs. an item like the C3.

Cell towers go down a heck of a lot more often than many people are aware of. If you were to look into an actual cell unit and supervise the dBm and which "side" (A or B) the cell is communicating on at any time, it's very easy to see and watch and provides worlds of information. It's also easy to see when the tower(s) hand off and the signal starts going to another tower. Their infrastructure isn't as robust as you alluded to, with backup generators and backup times with redundant systems...it's just not the case or real life installations. We've had to troubleshoot cellular communications routes and in doing such, we found many areas where upgrades or service being done in "off peak" hours causing the units to change to another tower. Not an issue if you can hit another tower with at least the minimum amount of "bars" but if it's marginal, that's when it starts to manifest further.

I haven't tested a C3, so I can't tell you the results, but if the C3 is down for whatever reason (AC loss, bad battery dragging down the supply, etc.) does it provide emulated POTS voltage on the connection so the panel knows it's still connected or not, same goes with normal operation? If not, the only time you would be alerted to any issue would be a missed dialer test or a FTC indication, fact.

At least with a true cellular communicator, there's either bidirectional serial or data bus communication or a STC relay that can be connected to a supervised zone to indicate at the host panel that something isn't right.

In the case of the Uplink 2500, you can hook it up to the M1's bell output or a voltage trigger, but you're only going to get summary data, either burg or fire, not full data tranmission, without a serial connection.

Dell,

Probability has EVERYTHING to do with it. Everything!!!!!

Everything you do has probability. If a professional is not using probability then he is not doing his customers any service. You weigh the risk of a system failing or succeeding against the cost of the system. The fanciest most expensive and mostly nearly 100% fail-safe system will still have a failure rate. Every system in the world needs to be evaluated by the cost of it failing against the cost of its implementation.

It is harder to put a number on life-safety issues. And people will say "you can't put a $ number on that". But they are wrong. Everyone does it everyday. We don't live in fire-proof houses. We don't pay a medical team to follow every person around their whole lives. We eat foods that might choke us. We allow people to drink up to .08% BAL and drive. We don't drive cars that we can run into a brick wall at 100mph and walk away from. There are a million examples of how we could live our lives with less chance of death but we don't do them because they cost too much and/or inconvenience us. Probability. .. the cost vs the probable benefit. It is always a "probable" benefit because the benefit can never be known in advance. . .we are trying to predict the future.

So, a c3 unit. A C3 is not a glorified cell phone, it is a cell phone. And it is a very very reliable cell phone because it is stationery, has a huge antenna, and a good power source. It can easily share the same power source as your security panel and/or you could easily put a supervising relay on the power source if that makes you anxious. If the unit shuts down because the power supply failed and the battery died, it does not emulate a line voltage. The only failure it could have is failure to secure a comm signal with a tower and/or the tower fails to connect to the world wide phone system. The probability of that lies in your location. For most people in the US you are going to be well within several towers considering the c3's antenna. I used the c3 as my home phone for 3 years and it never dropped a call. That is an anecdotal statistic, but the only one I have. Even if it did drop the call, the Elk would just call again.

I suggested earlier that the most likely reason for a conventional security system (hooked up to a POTS line or internet connection) to fail would be because it was purposely made to fail by the intruder. In my mind, the most probable reason for of a simultaneous comm failure and a home invasion. . . is because the intruder made it that way. A c3 unit makes that probability drop to something so close to 0% that I will just say it isn't going to ever happen. Periodic and automatic testing of the c3 will drop your random chance of a simultaneous comm failure and home invasion to something very very low as well. Now if you live in a house in Detroit with big picture window out front showing off $10k worth of fancy electronics, maybe not so much. But where most of us live, I don't think our probability of home invasion at any given moment is high enough to warrant the high cost of a constantly live connection to a monitoring center.

 

[Del91574]

Lou, you're missing the point by throwing statistics at the points I mentioned regarding the C3 in particular vs. a "normal" cellular backup, like the dialer capture or direct to serial or data bus connected units. For example, Alarmnet polls their units and a missed poll from a unit results in a police dispatch. C24 and a few other providers do similar. Is it 100% necessary, no, but it's what it boils down to is security. For the cost of a C3, in actuality, a unit that provides supervision and STC outputs could be had, so it comes down to making an informed decision, which comparing a C3 to a purpose built communicator, it's not apples to apples.

While it may be acceptable and work for most, and if it makes you and others feel warm and fuzzy, I would hope that people would look a lot closer. An alarm cellular is communicating straight data on the GSM or CDMA side, not sending DTMF on the voice side of the network. The data side is a lot different than the wifi internet and the voice side of a cellular carrier.

The fact of the matter is testing non-withstanding, there is no active or supervised way for a connected alarm panel to know if the C3 exists or if there is a trouble condition, "hacking" a STC output from one is not a viable nor would it be considered an acceptable, professional and bulletproof reliable solution. The problem I have is you can remove the backup battery or have no backup supply (or simply have it malfunction and then drag the board down) and nobody would ever know anything was wrong. Huge system design and component flaw.

 

[chrisexv6]

Sorry to inject a little "newbieness" but Ive always wondered.....if I used something like a C3 with a prepaid minutes card, exactly how many minutes does the C3 use? Obviously it sends a test every X amount of time. What about zone status, changes, etc? Further, does the prepaid minutes work like cell phones did way back in the day.....even if its a 30 second call, its still a minute?

And even further....what if I ran out of minutes right before I actually needed them? Would I know ahead of time that I needed to get another prepaid card/SIM?

Im actually just curious. This is part of the reason I went with the Uplink....if I really did need to keep track of minutes on my cell communicator, I really didnt feel secure. What if I forgot just before I really needed it?

 

[apostolakisl]

Sorry to inject a little "newbieness" but Ive always wondered.....if I used something like a C3 with a prepaid minutes card, exactly how many minutes does the C3 use? Obviously it sends a test every X amount of time. What about zone status, changes, etc? Further, does the prepaid minutes work like cell phones did way back in the day.....even if its a 30 second call, its still a minute?

And even further....what if I ran out of minutes right before I actually needed them? Would I know ahead of time that I needed to get another prepaid card/SIM?

Im actually just curious. This is part of the reason I went with the Uplink....if I really did need to keep track of minutes on my cell communicator, I really didnt feel secure. What if I forgot just before I really needed it?

I can speak for ATT. They send you emails telling you if your minutes are going to expire or if you are running out. And they do it incessantly well in advance (they are trying to get you to spend more money!!!)

1000 minutes/year for a security system is tons!!!! I didn't even come close to using them last year. If it calls once/week that would be 52 minutes. If you were having it call once per day, that would be 365 minutes. As you can see, that is far from 1000. That leaves a lot of false alarm conditions. When Elk calls in, it only uses one minute. I had like 750 minutes left over last year.

If you happen to have an ATT or t-mobile cell phone, you can add it to your plan. Then you would obviously know very quickly if your regular phone went down.

The c3 communicates all the data to central station, unlike some of the other systems. So if you get an alarm, central station can call you and tell you exactly what happened. This has served me well on several occasions as I had false alarms on things and could tell by the zone and my knowledge of the days potential events what was going on without actually being there.

Dell is very concerned about cell tower failure. The C3 can't go dead without the panel knowing it because the line voltage will die. . . just like you unplugged the phone line. I suppose something could go all screwy with the unit for some random reason and it would still give a line voltage, but not be capable of calling out .. . like maybe the radio on it died but the rest still worked. But I just don't think the odds of such a split failure occurring are high enough to worry about it. If the thing works once per week every week for 3 years and on every single occasion that you accidentally set the alarm off, then you can feel pretty good about it working in a real security breach.

 

[Del91574]

The C3 is simply a conduit for DTMF, that's all. Cellular communicators like Uplink, DSC/C24, Alarmnet, Telular and others send real data. May not seem like much of a difference, but the speed and reliability are very different.

The C3 may or may not provide a trouble indication, which is what you just said, Lou....not items I'd want to know about my comms route for an alarm or life safety system. Granted, nothing is 100%, but I'd prefer to have the best shot of getting the signal out there as well as be notified of issues prior to the alarm either generating a FTC or line down indication at the panel.

As I've offered many times, I invite you to come up to see some of our sites and how stuff really works or does not work. Compare apples to banannas and you'll see clearly.

 

[apostolakisl]

The C3 is simply a conduit for DTMF, that's all. Cellular communicators like Uplink, DSC/C24, Alarmnet, Telular and others send real data. May not seem like much of a difference, but the speed and reliability are very different.

The C3 may or may not provide a trouble indication, which is what you just said, Lou....not items I'd want to know about my comms route for an alarm or life safety system. Granted, nothing is 100%, but I'd prefer to have the best shot of getting the signal out there as well as be notified of issues prior to the alarm either generating a FTC or line down indication at the panel.

As I've offered many times, I invite you to come up to see some of our sites and how stuff really works or does not work. Compare apples to banannas and you'll see clearly.

I appreciate the invite, but CT is a bit out of my normal travels. My wife's cousin lives up there so who knows.

Not to continue to argue, but DTMF is still real data. Why so harsh on poor touch-tone? It sends the whole load of alarm data in like 10 or 15 seconds, its not like we're streaming a movie or something here.

Just curious, how often do you have a comm failure. . . I mean loss of cellular. . . not broken uplink device? But I wonder. .. what the hell you gonna do about it anyway? I guess it's nice to know that the panel can't comm with CS because the cellular link is down, but you just have to wait for the cell tower/s to get fixed. Maybe stand in front of the house with a shot gun?

Also consider, the c3 works for voice as well. So you have a backup way to call out. You can also use google voice to copy all your inbound calls to the c3 and you get a whole house ring for your regular cell phone at no extra charge (unless you use all your minutes actually answering it instead of the cell phone). And it would be one more way to know it is working (cause house phone rings same time as cell). At one point I had my c3 working like that until I got my OBI110 (love that thing). Currently C3 just lives quietly with the Elk.

I did kill the power to it, and the elk does alert. I do not have a pots line. . . so I don't know if dead c3 still passes pots through. I have no way to check what happens if the cell signal is zippo, I still get 2 out of 3 bars even with the antenna unplugged. I suppose I could try putting it in a metal box or something.. . but I'm not going to.

 

[newalarm]

Wow... ok. Thanks for all the info. A lot to digest for a newbie...

I like the idea of the uplink 2500 in that you don't need to deal with a GSM subscription. At the cheapest on my plan, it would be 10$/month, probably about 12 all said and done (after taxes, tip, and what not). You would save with a prepaid, at a $100/month (Lou, do you pay taxes on that too?), but this could go down in future if the Telcom Corp Gods become suddenly generous....

If I understand correctly, both units (C3 and Uplink) go over the same towers. the only difference is one sends data, and one goes over voice portion, but acting like a modem i assume. One is monitored by Uplink and eventually the monitoring company, the C3 receives the communication from the Elk as if it was a regular line.

I contacted Uplink, here is what i found out:
[background=transparent]Uplink 2500 (formerly known as Anynet[/background][background=transparent]) is a radio system that connects data (not voice) directly back to Uplink who receives the communication and then reports to your monitoring company. If you have contract through monitoring company, they set up account and pay Uplink directly. [/background]If you don't, you would need to set up account with Uplink (but you may need to be professional). So your $12 fee with AlarmRelay, part of that goes back to Uplink.

[background=transparent]Uplink 2500 ([/background][background=transparent]$150) [/background][background=transparent]requires Elk M1XSP serial expander ($100[/background]). Prices are rough...
[background=transparent]2550 is NOT recommended if you have VOIP since it causes problems. 2500 is much more secure.[/background]

I think I may do phone for now, and upgrade to cellular later (due to cost). We live in the city and i have a strobe on the side of house that should attract some attention. We have IP through cable, plus VOIP. I wanted to get a POTS line through Verizon, but after making two appointments with them and they never showed up or bothered calling, I gave up. I will try again, unfortunately, i think Verizon has monopoly over POTS lines.

One thing though, i need to secure my cable/phone lines. Currently, they are accessible to anyone on side of house. I have provisions to take them through the roof (another possible weak point since our house is a townhouse).

 

[apostolakisl]

(Lou, do you pay taxes on that too?)

Yes and No. If you refill at the kiosk, then you pay $100 flat but you get like 900 and something minutes instead of 1000.

All of the other stuff you said is also my understanding.

If you are just doing voip at your house for now, I would still go ahead and connect to central station using the m1's phone dialer. Many people have no probs with voip, but others do. I would give it a try. . . it is better than nothing. At the very least you could set m1 to call your cell phone and give a voice message to you when the alarm sounds (self-monitored).

 

[newalarm]

Yes, I need to figure out how to get the self monitoring call or email from the Elk panel. Haven't gotten that far yet. Have had problems setting up the M1XEP (see other thread). Have not yet gotten back to messing with it. Hopefully this weekend.

 

[apostolakisl]

A little something about security and probability. I came across this news article.

In an inconceivable breach, an 82-year-old nun along with two other seniors somehow managed to evade what the U.S. government calls the “most stringent security in the world” to break into a nuclear weapons laboratory often referred to as the “Fort Knox of Uranium.

What are the odds of that?

 

[Del91574]

If I understand correctly, both units (C3 and Uplink) go over the same towers. the only difference is one sends data, and one goes over voice portion, but acting like a modem i assume. One is monitored by Uplink and eventually the monitoring company, the C3 receives the communication from the Elk as if it was a regular line.

[background=transparent]Uplink 2500 ([/background][background=transparent]$150) [/background][background=transparent]requires Elk M1XSP serial expander ($100[/background]). Prices are rough...
[background=transparent]2550 is NOT recommended if you have VOIP since it causes problems. 2500 is much more secure.[/background]

@ Lou, how a cellular alarm communicator sends data to a GSM or CDMA channel tower is very different than the voice side of the network in how it's handled, speed, security, etc. Direct data is different than DTMF, which is no different than voice, although it would take an extra step to a modem then be converted back to raw data.

A 2500 vs. a 2530 and up Uplink unit differ in how they operate with a M1. The 2500 would typically get the panel data directly via an XSP, then send directly via the 2500. A 2530 (& up) are dialer capture units, different method of how they work. They could be set to work all the time by being configured as cell primary, however at that point, it makes more sense to not connect to a telco or VOIP connection at that rate. In the case of VOIP and a dialer capture unit, it's not recommended to connect them to a VOIP line, as the ATA will put out voltage irregardless of if there is actually a functioning net connection, or if there's latency, it would only manifest as garbage at the CS as the packets are put back together or in layman's terms, the voice would sound like garbage or not be heard at all.

A dialer capture unit does not work like a C3 either, it simulates a telco line, "listens" for the panel to dial (some listen for a programmed phone #, other's don't care what the sequence is) then gives a handshake, gets the data, gives a kissoff, then spits the data across the cell network, never is it sending DTMF.

In the case of all 3rd party alarm cell providers, the increased cost boils down to an additional service provider being thrown into the same pot, most cases it's the equivalent of having 2 monitoring accounts for all intents and purposes. In the case of a unit like the C3, it's just taking a nickel from Peter to pay Paul. If your cell contract and carrier make more economic sense to get another SIM and you're comfortable in knowing the differences between a unit like a C3 and a true alarm cellular unit, combined with the limitations that exist on a C3, more power to you.

From one of the smaller sites we're finishing up commissioning on, full blown monitoring head end, CS equipment, ACS, FA, dispatch, and IP CCTV, NVR's and servers, with only around 500 cameras, being viewed on multiple client computers onsite. This is only the "A" side, there's an entire mirrored console.

 

[apostolakisl]

Dell,

I agree about VOIP, but that discussion was in response to a post where the poster stated they had voip and weren't going to add any other comm. While dtmf seems to be somewhat hit or miss on voip, certainly self monitored voice messages to your cell phone will work. . . provided your internet is up. Which is why I think internet is bad in general at the residential setting.

I just don't know if the c3 sends voltage to the panel when there is no pots and it is not logged into a cell tower and it is powered up. I can't simulate it.

Whether you use dtmf over cell tower or raw data, both depend on working cell towers. So no point in discussing cell tower up time.

If your cell tower goes down, and the alarm gives you a trouble message. . . it tends to serve no purpose. You can't fix the cell tower. Like I said earlier. .. I guess you could stand a guard out front until it comes online. But the basic jist is working cell towers are required for both and knowing that your cell tower is down has no practical benefit since it is going to be corrected regardless.

Let's say your minutes expire on your c3 or the radio on the c3 dies but the rest of it works. . . this is certainly a situation where the uplink would be better. The c3 would presumably still put out phone line voltage and the panel wouldn't know anything was wrong until it did a test dial. These would be problems the homeowner would be responsible for fixing so a penal warning serves a purpose. The panel warning would come. . .but not until your next test dial.

I'm not seeing that all of this talk about dtmf over cell phone vs straight data over cell tower amounts to anything. Both get the message through with a meaningless difference.

The uplink units are great for pure alarm reporting to central station. But, I have had great satisfaction with my c3. It serves several functions that uplink doesn't. I can call into my Elk via the c3, my Elk can call me via the C3, and I can use the C3 to make outbound calls from in the house to anyone. All of this works independent of any physical connection to the outside world. I don't need electricity (at least for 12 hours or so), and I don't need any wires running from my house.

If data exists that can point out the statistical success rate between dtmf over c3 vs an uplink. . .it would be worth looking at. My gut tells me both are going to have failure rates so small that no residential customer is going to consider it meaningful. C3 offers me another batch of features that make it the winner.

 

[Del91574]

I was providing information to the OP regarding how a 2500 works in comparison to a dialer capture based unit and the fact that if an alarm, not just an M1, is connected to a dialer capture unit in conjunction with a VOIP connection, the unit may not communicate relative to the VOIP connection being functional; The capture unit would only function if there was no voltage from the ATA, which is what the poster was referring to as there being an issue, which is fact, however the units could still be used as dialer capture without connecting the units to a telephone (analog or VOIP) line, no harm, no foul, but the STC relay may show a fault condition unless they are programmed to ignore a line fault.

I can't educate on how a cell tower and carriers works, data is sent over CDMA and GSM networks, control carriers and the big picture vs. the voice side of the network and how DTMF being sent on the voice side isn't the same, up time and reliability isn't the same, nor is how they function. As they say, ignorance is bliss.

In the case of a C3 vs. a dedicated alarm cell, you're missing the point and what the issue I have with it is: IT PROVIDES NO FEEDBACK OR NOTIFICATION THAT ANYTHING IS WRONG WITH THE UNIT OR SERVICE.

Until someone or something tries to dial through on it, that's the first indication, no matter how long the period of time it may be out of service. If the cell towers are down and it can't reach another tower, it's not going to matter whose service provider is, true, but the big difference is when (and if!) you are going to be notified of such an issue. May not change the situation, but at least you or somebody would be aware of an issue. It's like stating that AC loss and low battery reports don't matter on a system or peripherals, since either of those reports or notifications has a practical benefit (it's what you said regarding knowing cell service or a tower being down).


To provide an analogy , it's like stating that I'm OK with a panel not indicating a low battery or performing a battery load test, because if the power's out, the battery will only last X amount of time; however a battery test would help identify a battery that has an unacceptable voltage drop when placed under load, so a battery that should provide X hours of standby is only providing 5 minutes. A low battery/failed test isn't going to fix the battery or make the system last longer, but it is still going to alert you in a timely manner to the fact there's a portion of the system that is not up to par.

How is the C3 going to inform you that it's battery pack is bad? How does it self test and tell you anything? How would you know there's a problem....you may not be able to fix it or address the situation, but are you going to be informed of anything? When is the end user (or you) going to be informed of a problem, 23:59:59, when the dialer report is missed, assuming a daily dialer test? Maybe connecting it to the house phones via it's output means I'll detect a problem faster when the downstream lines don't have dialtone or I can't call into my panel?

If someone wants to use a C3 because it makes them feel warm and fuzzy and they can dial into it to perform X and Y without a landline, so be it, but to turn a blind eye to large design flaws inherent with it and try to compare it side by side with a purpose built piece of equipment that is designed for a monitored and supervised system would scare me. I would be hard pressed to say it's a cell backup when it's far more akin to connecting to a POTS line in execution.

I build and install systems on a daily basis. I also build and have built central stations, monitoring setups, both proprietary and derived systems, on multiple technologies and platforms. I install and service CS equipment and have to deal with this stuff on a daily basis, so it's not like I'm making theoretical examples of how this stuff works and performs.

 

[Teken]

This is a interesting topic to say the least. What I find very interesting is that there are so many people on this forum that use the ELK system as their primary source of security.

I believe the ELK M1 has come a long way and offers the DIY a lot of value.

Having said all of this, people are placing their eggs all in one basket when it comes to down to security. There isn't a Government agency, military, police, hospital, fortune 100 company I know that use or deploy this box.

There are a lot of pro's and con's of having the ability to automate certain things with an alarm system. But, people really need to know what the first priority is for that system is.

Security . . .

Teken . . .

 

[apostolakisl]

Dell,

The C3 is a 12vdc device. Just like 99% of all the other stuff you attach to an alarm panel. The built-in battery is by no means mandatory. Unplug it an throw it away. Let me ask. . .how are your uplinks powered and backed up? I'll answer. . . you have them plugged into a 12vdc power supply that has battery backup. There is nothing in the world stopping you from doing