Size of INSTEON networks?

[fitzpatri8]

So they have the equivalent of a coupler/repeater and RF transceiver. You need two devices. Guess what? I can do the same thing in an X-10 network with two devices.

What X10 device picks up every PLC, transmits that code wirelessly to another receiver, then converts it back to PLC on another power leg or at an electronically "noisy" part of your house? What X10 controller confirms that the sent signal is actually received and acted upon by the destination switch, and resends the command if necessary? How many X10 devices include a repeater in each switch, so that every device you add improves the network? How many X10 devices can have 65,000 unique device addresses so you don't need to coordinate your automation with every neighbor sharing your transformer? How many X10 devices turn on a remote light as fast as Insteon? If you end up with a "dead zone" in your X10 network, how easy is it to fix?

I'm just touching the surface. There's actually quite a bit to distinguish X10 from Insteon

My point was that they're really playing up the RF stuff, confusing people to the point where they are comparing it with Z-wave and zigbee, when it really has more in common with X-10 and UPB.

Not at all. An Insteon network communicates all device requests and confirmations with both powerline signals and wireless signals. An Insteon network should include two SignaLincs, which are included in the $99 starter kit. This point is not hidden; in fact, it is promenently displayed in every Insteon quickstart page and manual for every Insteon device I've seen. The network looks to have been designed from the ground up with this wireless and powerline command redundancy, so it isn't just a patched on fix.

Tom

 

[smee]

How many X10 devices can have 65,000 unique device addresses so you don't need to coordinate your automation with every neighbor sharing your transformer?

I think that the INSTEON address space is 24 bits - so it's 16,777,216 addresses.

And as far as RF goes, they are talking about future RF devices - there just aren't any yet (other than the Signalincs). I don't know if there will be a device similar to the MR26A and WG800 that will allow direct reception of RF into a PC - bypassing the powerlines. If there is, it may complicate software/hardware interfaces since it will be hard to keep the RF off of the powerline and the computer may get both signals.

 

[ALEDOUX13]

I just finished installing 57 V2 Switchlincs in my friends house. Everything seems to be working great I even tested linking 2 switches from opposite sides of the house (3 story 4000 sq ft custom built). The switches are each on a different phase and there was no noticable delay in setting up a virtual 3-way.

 

[upstatemike]

Wow, 57 switches! This is a great scalability reference. I assume this was Insteon "native mode" with X-10 compatibility turned off?

 

[markthomas]

What X10 device picks up every PLC, transmits that code wirelessly to another receiver, then converts it back to PLC on another power leg or at an electronically "noisy" part of your house?

Huh? I think you know that X-10 works differently. I use an ACT CR-230, and the end result is the same as Insteon: powerline switches on one phase can communicate with powerline receivers on the other.

What X10 controller confirms that the sent signal is actually received and acted upon by the destination switch, and resends the command if necessary?

Since you asked, my KeypadLinc does this with 2-way switches. There's no doubt that Insteon's 2-way capabilities are better though.

How many X10 devices include a repeater in each switch, so that every device you add improves the network?

Pretty much all the latest Smarthome switches.

How many X10 devices can have 65,000 unique device addresses so you don't need to coordinate your automation with every neighbor sharing your transformer? How many X10 devices turn on a remote light as fast as Insteon? If you end up with a "dead zone" in your X10 network, how easy is it to fix?

All valid points, except I don't know about the last one. How easy is it to fix a dead zone in the Insteon powerline?

The network looks to have been designed from the ground up with this wireless and powerline command redundancy

What redundancy? If a powerline signal doesn't get to a switch or appliance module, then what? They don't receive RF.

Don't get me wrong, I think Insteon is a great improvement over X-10. But it is not an "RF Network", it's an RF-coupled powerline network. If you think it's anything more than that, you're just buying into their hype.

 

[GadgetGuru]

Don't get me wrong, I think Insteon is a great improvement over X-10. But it is not an "RF Network", it's an RF-coupled powerline network. If you think it's anything more than that, you're just buying into their hype.

If you have read all of the INSTEON marketing materials and whitepapers, and all of them say that it is a Powerline and RF network combined, where is the"hype"? I haven't seen anything saying that INSTEON is an RF network only.

I doubt that INSTEON would want to be known as an RF only protocal anyway. Transmitting RF from a metal JBox logically should work very well.

I just finished installing 57 V2 Switchlincs in my friends house. Everything seems to be working great I even tested linking 2 switches from opposite sides of the house (3 story 4000 sq ft custom built). The switches are each on a different phase and there was no noticable delay in setting up a virtual 3-way.

Does anyone know of a large RF (zWave) network that is working well?

 

[rocco]

If you have read all of the INSTEON marketing materials and whitepapers, and all of them say that it is a Powerline and RF network combined, where is the"hype"? I haven't seen anything saying that INSTEON is an RF network only.

I don't think anybody is accusing SmartHome of claiming that Insteon is an RF network only. I'm not sure I would call it 'hype', but I do think that the Insteon marketing is exaggerating the RF aspect of the protocol. In fact, RF is currently used only to bridge the phases, though that is sure to change. Some examples:

Insteon is touted as a "Dual-Band" protocol, as if the RF is an equal partner, when it is clear from the white-paper that the powerline aspects of the protocol dominate.

Much of the Insteon marketing claims that devices communicate by Powerline and RF. Though technically this is true, it is often been interpret to mean that every device uses both mediums. Just look at the early Insteon post on this board.

I do believe the analogy with X10 RF is perfectly valid. X10 is primarily a powerline protocol, with RF as a means to accommodate battery-powered devices, such as motion sensors and hand-held remotes. It's obvious from the white paper that the RF portions of Insteon are designed to accomplish the same goals.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm knocking Insteon or SmartHome. On the contrary. They are simply modernizing a paradigm that has been proved to work.

 

[fitzpatri8]

In fact, RF is currently used only to bridge the phases, though that is sure to change.

The way I read it, not only does the Insteon approach do away with the need to wire in a phase coupler at the breaker box (or tolerate a sub-optimal location already wired with a 220 outlet), it also offers a quick and easy way to boost signals and move signals *around* parts of circuits which are "electronically noisy."

 

[GadgetGuru]

Insteon is touted as a "Dual-Band" protocol, as if the RF is an equal partner, when it is clear from the white-paper that the powerline aspects of the protocol dominate.

I hear you. There are clearly 2 different parts of this:

1. The protocol, which according to the white paper allows for both powerline and RF

Smarthome is licensing Insteon to other manufacturers, and the protocol appears to allow for powerline-only products, RF-only products and dual-band products. Since RF historically has always been more expensive than powerline, I would expect that more Insteon products will be developed using powerline that RF or both powerline and RF.

The white paper does use a lot of space on the powerline side of the dual-band piece, but I would expect that, since the powerline packet transmission is performed so much faster than X10 and contains code confirming commands have been received.

I don't think that means that there is a lesser focus on RF. Other than battery operated devices, is there a reason to have a purely RF device?


2. The products launched by Smarthome so far, which are clearly more focused on powerline

Since Smarthome as a manufacturer has been focused on wired-in and plugged-in modules, it makes sense that the first products available are mostly powerline. As others have posted here before, it does appear that purely RF Insteon products are on the way, too.

With the speed Smarthome is launching Insteon products, I would be surprised if we don't see an RF only remote soon. Has anybody heard about a beta test for one?

 

[markthomas]

it also offers a quick and easy way to boost signals and move signals *around* parts of circuits which are "electronically noisy."

Insteon does no such thing. I believe Smarthome is being deliberately vague on this. They seem to want people to believe that their switches and modules can send or receive RF as a backup for the powerline, when really they neither send nor receive RF.

 

[upstatemike]

But if you put an RF unit at the end of a long, noisy circuit I assume it would act sort of like a boosterlink. It should take the signal from the RF pair doing the phase coupling and re-insert a strong powerline signal at the trouble spot.

 

[ChrisWalker]

Does anyone know of a large RF (zWave) network that is working well?

Yessir. We have a test home which we're putting 200 light switches in, and it's actually three disconnected buildings on one Z-Wave network. There are also 15 plug-in modules, and 6 Z-Wave thermostats in there.

We don't have all the switches in yet, but we do have them throughout both ends of two of the buildings, and have had no RF problems so far.

Chris

 

[fitzpatri8]

But if you put an RF unit at the end of a long, noisy circuit I assume it would act sort of like a boosterlink. It should take the signal from the RF pair doing the phase coupling and re-insert a strong powerline signal at the trouble spot.

Kind of. The difference is, a BoosterLinc primarily helps transmit signals to "downstream" devices because it needs to be placed where it can hear a weak but uncorrupted powerline command and transmit a stronger one.

The Insteon SignaLinc concept is a huge improvement because it doesn't need to "see" any powerline signal to work. It only needs to be within RF range of another SignaLinc and within PLC range of the isolated Insteon switches or modules.

 

[markthomas]

But if you put an RF unit at the end of a long, noisy circuit I assume it would act sort of like a boosterlink. It should take the signal from the RF pair doing the phase coupling and re-insert a strong powerline signal at the trouble spot.

Ah, yes, I suppose that's true. I see reports that real-world range is 10' - 20', so you may have to liberally sprinkle them about.

Once you have these things sending RF throughout the house, then what? Nothing's listening to it.

 

[PeterW]

How many X10 devices can have 65,000 unique device addresses so you don't need to coordinate your automation with every neighbor sharing your transformer? How many X10 devices turn on a remote light as fast as Insteon? If you end up with a "dead zone" in your X10 network, how easy is it to fix?

All valid points, except I don't know about the last one. How easy is it to fix a dead zone in the Insteon powerline?

You can add more than one signalinc-rf FWIW. So if you needed to, you could bridge signal in via RF if that suited. Or add another Insteon switch near the edge of the "dead spot" so there was a better chance of it repeating into the dead zone.