SmartMeters soon to be installed by local Elec Co

[PaulD]

In a few months, my local elec utility (OG&E) will start installing "Smart Meters" for 100% of its customers in Norman OK. That includes me. They are also soliciting 3000 volunteers to participate in a study as part of the installation. Additional information about this can be found in news articles at here and here

I have already submitted my application to be a volunteer. From what I have heard so far, they will be using a GE Smart Meter which uses wireless for communication. As part of the study, I think they will ask the volunteers to install new thermostats and possibly other devices.

I am interested in energy conservation and I want to participate in the study. However, I already have an Omni Pro II along with RC2000 thermostats in my house. I do not intend to remove my thermostats but I am willing to participate if they have the ability to communicate with my existing system. I do not have any technical info about the installation so far so I am not sure yet what my options may be to participate in the study. I think they intend to provide volunteers with a web site to view your consumption data. However, I would really like it if there was a way for me to directly monitor usage real time and use the information myself if I wanted to.

Does anyone have any experience with this GE Smart Meter setup? Does it have any ability to share or exchange data with my Omni Pro II?

 

[JeffCharger]

I live in Ontario where the hydro utility has installed smart meters fairly extensively. While I don't participate, they have also paid people ($25 I think) to participate in a program where during peak times, hydro can reduce your electrical consumption. This is targeted at airconditioning units primarily. To do this, I believe that they have direct control over your thermostat and can "turn it down by one degree". This rubbed me the wrong way, so I'm not part of the program....but I remember that in addition to the $25 there is some reduction in monthly fees (10%?) and they also provided you with a programmable and remotely accessible thermostat.

I believe that the thermostat provided was a single model - with no intent to integrate wiht existing thermostats. I can understand this aspect.

I may be remembering some of these details incorrectly, but it's something along these lines. It's driven by the coming of utility rates based on time of day useage. I'm sure others here can chime in with specifics.

 

[cornutt]

TVA tried a program like that here back in the late '80s. They installed a remotely-operated relay in the HVAC outdoor unit circuit. The deal was that they would signal it to shut off for a maximum of 5 minutes during peak usage times. But they started keeping them off longer than that, and also, their units would often "miss" the signal to turn back on, rendering the air conditioning inoperable. It became so unpopular that they stopped the program.

I'm afraid that that's exactly how it's going to go again... they are going to want to install devices that they control direclty; they won't work right, and people will start bypassing them. That's not the way smart metering is supposed to work. PaulD, I've got an OPII and RC1000s too, and what I want their system to do is pass an energy cost signal to my system. Then I can decide how to respond to peak energy pricing. If they price peak energy at, say, 50 cents per KWH, then I'll have my system do all kinds of load shedding. But the point is, I'll decide what loads get dropped based on the situation.

 

[ano]

I don't know what they are doing in your case, but I do know what many utilities are doing. The meters likely have added Zigbee in them and in some cases the meters can communicate with the utility directly using a powerline standard. There are usually a few variations, but in most cases the utilities do allow residents to monitor their usage using a Zigbee dongle or device. The bad news is that the utility heavily encrypts the Zigbee so that the homeowner can't monitor much from it, but in most cases utilities allow a subset of info to be monitored by the homeowner. Sometimes utilities install thermostats that they can control, but also little panels that display your usage. Again, the Zigbee is likely encrypted, so don't get too excited about monitoring it directly with a home automation system, although so do allow that.

 

[Dave X10]

I think the whole "Smart Grid" is a multi-billion dollar boondoggle.

Billions and billions of dollars is being spent... with no plan of return or implementation. Most people don't even realize that in America (Home of the Smart Grid)... that power company's (and the GRID) are NOT government branches. Power company's are privately owned corporations just like car manufactors... oops.. bad example.

A tiny portion of the money spent on Smart Grid technology... will end up in the pockets of the politicians doing the spending. But a tiny portion of 100 BILLION.. is a LOT.

 

[PaulD]

UPDATE - After I filled out the volunteer form online, I received back a confirmation indicating they will be contacting volunteers in Feb to coordinate the next step. Based on latest info I have found, they use wireless communication (not powerline) back to the utility company. They also published some info that suggested that homeowners can have a device (not a thermostat?) in their house that would let them monitor usage and show associated cost factors. I am guessing this device allows you to see what is going on but does not allow any direct control other than be aware of useage and cost factors that may drive you to take actions to manually take actions independently such as doing laundry during off-peak hours.
I also checked and found that HAI has a smartgrid package that might play in here somewhere. Info on that can be found here. The HAI package appears to use ZigBee to link smartmeters together with the HAI RC2000 (ZigBee version) and their LCM (Load Control Modules) as a way to monitor and control power to selected devices. In this setup, it appears that I would have the ability to control decisions on utility use rather than the utility company making those decisions for me.

I will report back here from time to time on how this plays out. I would still be interested in hearing from anyone who is currently involved with this technology. Looking for advice or other usefull info that I should be aware of before I sign up for anything.

 

[twilo123]

i just happened to come across it yesterday when reading up on some green at CES. just basic info here: GE Smart Home
i know they were using 'Smart Command' a couple years back which had rcs hvac on the backend. not sure if this is an extension of that.

 

[PaulD]

i just happened to come across it yesterday when reading up on some green at CES. just basic info here: GE Smart Home
i know they were using 'Smart Command' a couple years back which had rcs hvac on the backend. not sure if this is an extension of that.

Best I can tell so far, they intend to use one of the GE smart meter units (GE has several) but apparently expect to use some other non GE management tool. Very fuzzy at this point with no hard technical info. They have identified several different players (which I have looked up on web) but each of the players have multiple solutions they can utilize depending on how the utility company wants to set up the deal. The info so far indicates a wireless smart grid will be part of the solution. To me that implies that Zigbee will be part of the package but I have not seen the name Zigbee (or any other) used yet in any description.

 

[ano]

i just happened to come across it yesterday when reading up on some green at CES. just basic info here: GE Smart Home
i know they were using 'Smart Command' a couple years back which had rcs hvac on the backend. not sure if this is an extension of that.

Best I can tell so far, they intend to use one of the GE smart meter units (GE has several) but apparently expect to use some other non GE management tool. Very fuzzy at this point with no hard technical info. They have identified several different players (which I have looked up on web) but each of the players have multiple solutions they can utilize depending on how the utility company wants to set up the deal. The info so far indicates a wireless smart grid will be part of the solution. To me that implies that Zigbee will be part of the package but I have not seen the name Zigbee (or any other) used yet in any description.

Zigbee is likely, but I have see a few utilities use proprietary wireless. Back to the power company its usually powerline, but some use cellular wireless as well. Sprint has made a good business supporting these modems. I had a call with them for my job and they told me how many meters they were monitoring, I think it was almost a million, but I could be wrong. Other times, I've seen wireless mesh networking used. It would sure be nice if they standardized this, but it doesn't look like its going to happen. Its cool though. Keep us posted.

Utilities aren't doing this for the fun of it. It can save them lots of money, and that is driving it.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

Here in Garland they use some kind of wireless, but not cellular, apparently. From the GP&L website they apparently still have to drive down the street to read the meters but it's done wirelessly so they don't have to get out and walk to each meter. They're refitting the water meters too somehow at some point.

Glad its not some comms over powerline thing, I read an article about how that has totally trashed power in some city in China where they implemented it... and it takes like 12 hours or something to query the whole city. Granted we'd probably have some tighter controls on powerline interference but even then... it might trash X10 and the like.

 

[PaulD]

Zigbee is likely, but I have see a few utilities use proprietary wireless. Back to the power company its usually powerline, but some use cellular wireless as well.

ano....thankls for the ZigBee 101 article here on Cocoon. Helped me get a better grip on what ZigBee is all about.

Still a lot of speculation on my part based on tidbits from various sources but it looks like they will be using technology and a management infrastructure from SilverSprings...see their website here. Appears that SilverSprings makes a Zigbee based NIC that fits into a GE I-210+ smart meter. The NIC communicates wirelessly via mesh network to a central collection point which then communicates back to the elec company. They have a short video describing thier communication strategy here. The web site did say everything was encripted but also suggested that the NIC also supports a HAN (Home Automation Network) which they imply can be used to communicate with homowner Zigbee equipted appliances, thermostats, computers, etc. SilverSprings also supports a web site called CustomerIQ for users to access and see info related to their usage.
Note...SilverSprings recently got an infusion of $100M from Google.

 

[ano]

Here in Garland they use some kind of wireless, but not cellular, apparently. From the GP&L website they apparently still have to drive down the street to read the meters but it's done wirelessly so they don't have to get out and walk to each meter. They're refitting the water meters too somehow at some point.

Glad its not some comms over powerline thing, I read an article about how that has totally trashed power in some city in China where they implemented it... and it takes like 12 hours or something to query the whole city. Granted we'd probably have some tighter controls on powerline interference but even then... it might trash X10 and the like.

The truck-drive meter reading is likely ZigBee. The bad news is they likely use encryption so even with a ZigBee dongle, you can't read your own meter. Here they actually use ZigBee to read gas meters. The meter has a large lithium battery that is supposed to power the thing for 15 years.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

The truck-drive meter reading is likely ZigBee. The bad news is they likely use encryption so even with a ZigBee dongle, you can't read your own meter. Here they actually use ZigBee to read gas meters. The meter has a large lithium battery that is supposed to power the thing for 15 years.

Well, I eventually want a Brultech or something anyway which would have greater specificity as to what is using how much power, so while being able to piggyback that existing data might be nice, it's no great loss...

Besides the old fashioned walk outside and look at the meter ain't SO bad, especially since it has a nice digital readout, not a bunch of dials.

 

[RArbour]

PaulD,

The answer to your questions unfortunately is not simple one. The Smart energy solutions that are being deployed today come in many different varieties. Some differ in communication methods (Zigbee, Wifi, PLC, Cell, even paging network). There is usually two different communication methods, one for communication inside the house, and a different for outside the house. For example the house can talk Zigbee (Thermostat, display, meter, load control modules), but the signal can be converted by a meter or gateway to a different method to get back to the electric company. Both methods are mostly likely dictated by the electric company (which purchases the solution "package" offered by a Smart Energy company).

Ano is correct that even if the solution OG&E deploys is Zigbee based, dont expect those Zigbee units to play well with any other Home Automation Zigbee devices (security reasons). This may not always be the case, but for now I am not aware of a solution that crosses this bridge.

You are correct that we at HAI do have a smart energy solution and are participating in a number of trials. With any luck OG&E will allow you to use a RC1000/2000 for the trial (will have to swap it out for SE version). If you are in a trial where the RC1000/2000 is usable in that carriers's communication method, you may connect the Omni to the Omnistat2 just like normal and it will play well with your Home Automation like it does so today (the communication to the meter/gateway and to the omni are separate communications).

With even more luck, your electric company may also make available HAi's other SE devices such as the In Home Display and Load Control Module. While these units are under the same security constraints as mentioned above, HAI's solution makes sure that all these devices communicate with each other. So the In Home Display will not only display energy data, but you may control the thermostat with it. You may be able to get more HA equipment on their dime.

So to summarize, your goal of keeping your RC1000/2000 and participating in the trial may be possible, but the only thing you can do is hope that they choose a method for their solution that is compatible with HAI.

Thanks,
Ryan

 

[PaulD]

PaulD,

So to summarize, your goal of keeping your RC1000/2000 and participating in the trial may be possible, but the only thing you can do is hope that they choose a method for their solution that is compatible with HAI.

Thanks,
Ryan

Thanks Ryan. Unfortunately, virtually no technical info has been released yet on the OG&E Smart Meter roll out. Everything I have stated so far is speculation on my part based on tidbits I have seen in various news articles and web sites for companies involved. Although it would be great to get some HA equipment on their dime, I am more focused on the positive side effects that would be available to me if their solution will play nice with my OPII setup. Right now I am trying to get smarter on the technology and the pieces to the puzzle so I can be in a position to play any angle I can if I am involved in their volunteer program.
If this means swapping out my current RC2000's for the newer Zigbee versions, I do not have a problem with that as long as I understood in advance how the pieces work together. Would be nice to get my hands on the manual for the Zigbee version of the RC2000 whenever it becomes available (Hint Hint). If it fits into my setup as well as the OG&E solution, it would be nice to try and convince them them to use one of those in lieu of any other product they may play to use.