Software vs Hardware controllers

[Macrosill]

Hello everyone. My name is Brian and this is my 1st post here. I became interested in HA a few weeks ago because I am looking for a solution to manually control and override my pool filter while away from home. I originally was thinking an x10 application but then I need a server running in order to have 24/7 control no matter where I am, via the internet. So I figure if I am going to invest in something that substantial I might as well get more complex and start to automate my entire home, little by little. I have done lots of reading in the past few weeks. I have decided to utilize UPB technology instead of x10. I also want to start with a system I can expand upon. It seems most here utilize either an ELK M1G or and HAI Omni series controller. I also found the most popular software based controllers are Homeseer, CQC and Main Lobby. Now onto my question:
Why would one choose a software based controller over a hardware based controller or vice versa? Is one better than the other? Does one have more capabilities or functionality than the other? Or does one need both? It seems the software based, even with building a server to run it is a lot less expensive that an ELK or HAI controller. I have lots of pc and electronics experience so configuring a server and connecting relays and sensors is not a difficult task for me.

Like I said, I want to start small but I want to get the right setup so that I can add onto it later on. I do not want to buy something now that I can not use later. My overall goal is to control the pool, hvac in my house, some lighting, indoor and out, as well as maybe a few zones of audio, mostly outside. Things like water sensors for the basement would be cool too. I currently have a cctv and dvr system that I am not looking to integrate, at this time. I have a security system, a Napco Gemini 1632 panel that I can upgrade to the 9600 if need be. I am willing to change to a different system but from what I have read the hardware controllers are nothing more than a security panel with some expansion ports on them. Do I really need to spend 1,400 dollars for an HAI security panel?

 

[Macrosill]

Sorry about the double post but I wanted to add a thank you line to my sig but I can not do that yet, nor can I edit my initial post. So:
Thank You,
Brian

 

[Steve]

Hello everyone. My name is Brian and...

Hi Brian. My name is Steve and I'm an HAlcoholic Welcome to CocoonTech where we can greatly help you spend all of your disposable (and not so disposable) income.

Your situation and questions are very common and there is already alot of info here if the Search button becomes your best friend. But in a nutshell...

Most of the hardware system like the Elk and HAI offerings are typically security systems first with a good degree of automation capability added. If you were starting from scratch they are a great way to get started. Since you have an alarm system, if it is capable of interfacing with a software package you can just go that route. Some people like having security and core automation in a single low power panel. I personally tend to be in that camp, where you use the panel as your core for all your important stuff, then use a software package to supplement it with the nice fluffy stuff like customizable touch screens (although Elk and HAI now have a certain level of that as well now), TTS, AV, HTML based stuff like weather, traffic, etc, etc.

So I would maybe approach it like this... If your alarm panel can be integrated (does it have a serial interface and protocol), then I may work in reverse and get a nice software package and do that for a while. If your panel needs to be replaced or upgraded then consider an M1 or Omni and at that time you can move some functions from the software to the panel if you wish. Or... You could keep your alarm as is and add an HAI Lumina for hardware based automation and then software on top of that. So there are several options depending on your goals and budget. Both the M1 and Omni will be very expandable for your needs. If you do go down the path of software as the core, put it on a dedicated pc that you leave alone. Most of the problems you have with software automation is being on pcs that are always fiddled with, etc. But on a dedicated platform that you leave alone it should be very stable. My CQC server just runs and only has an issue when there is an outside factor. o confuse you even more, the Cortexa system is nice as well and would (check if compatible) just work with your existing separate alarm.

Anyway, hope that gives you a few things to think about. Look around and feel free to ask more questions.

 

[sic0048]

First - welcome Brian. I hope you find Cocoontech as addicting as the rest of us.

Hardware based systems are generally more reliable. Software systems are generally generally cheaper (when comparing an apples to apples project with a hardware based system) and to a DIYer they also offer much greater capabilities than most hardware systems available to a DIYer (which are few are far between). Software systems also tend to be very reliable in this day and time.

For example, I use an ELK M1Gold for alarm and some automation things, but I also use CQC as my main system. The ELK will continue to function if the CQC system ever goes down (something it hasn't done on it's own in the 4 years I've used it). But using CQC allows me to tie systems together that the ELK cannot. For example, I have my TVs and audio equipment all tied together with the CQC system - that ability is not available on the ELK. I can also use a wide range of equipment to interact with the CQC system. I use touchscreens, regular computers (mouse and keyboard), Nokia Internet tablets (small wireless devices), regular IR remote controls, cell phones, etc. Sure, ELK may sell a touch screen, but I have more flexability in the type, size, cost, and operation of my interfaces because I use CQC.

That being said, you don't have to bite off everything at once. Since you already have an alarm system, replacing it with a hardware system like the ELK or HAI may not be the best solution. You might look at some of the software based systems and see if they would allow you to integrate your existing alarm system into it. You'll need to dedicate a computer to run the software on and leave it running 24/7, but that isn't the end of the world. These software based systems take less power than you might think and there are some very energy efficient computers out on the market currently if that is a concern of yours.

Having the alarm tied into your larger automation system is very handy because it allows you to know the status of the house. For example "armed away" means no one is home - therefore x,y and z should happen, etc. Perhaps if it is "armed away - vacation", then you want your pool controls to operate differently than you do when you are not on vacation and you want lights to randomly come on and off from dusk until 11pm when all lights should be turned off, etc, etc, etc.

Keep asking questions! I think you'll find this forum to be helpful and friendly - even to newbees

 

[Macrosill]

Thanks for your replies guys. That is exactly the kind of info I was looking for, especially Brian's post.

I am leaning more towards the software end of things as I am a DIY'er and tinkering is great fun. Lets just say I synchronize my 50,000 + Christmas lights to music using all homebrew hardware and transmit the audio on an FM station.

I think I will be using HomeSeer as it seems to do all I need and more but a a cheaper initial cost than CQC. I was very intrigued by CQC until I saw the cost. 600 is a little much for me to start off with. HS2 more cost effective for me now and I can always upgrade to Pro if I need it. HS also supports more of the technologies I am interested in for future expansion than CQC does, according to the HA Technology Comparison Spreadsheet.

I would still like to hear from others on this topic. So please post as I have not committed to anything yet.

Thanks,
Brian

 

[damage]

CQC until I saw the cost. 600 is a little much for me to start off with. HS2 more cost effective for me now and I can always upgrade to Pro if I need it. HS also supports more of the technologies I am interested in for future expansion than CQC does, according to the HA Technology Comparison Spreadsheet.

beware of the homeseer credit card plugin with many plugins priced at 20+% of the cost of hs2 software, you can quickly reach/exceed the price of CQC.

 

[Macrosill]

.....

beware of the homeseer credit card plugin with many plugins priced at 20+% of the cost of hs2 software, you can quickly reach/exceed the price of CQC.

Yup, I did notice that. I figured if I start buying a bunch of plugins over time I would just get Pro. Right now though, HS2 should suffice as all I am looking to do is get control of my pool.

 

[felixrosbergen]

I started with having ELK control lights and thermostarts and of course the alarm system. But ELK is not as flexible as a software based system. If you setup a server properly and don't mess with it too much (i.e. the kids computer is not a good server platform) then i'm finding it stable enough for my need so far (i started getting into this stuff 6 months ago).

I am now planning to move lighting control from ELK to CQC and have already moved thermostat control. In order to make slick GUI's i was going to need CQC (or some other software app for that matters) and since lighting and temperature in't all that critical (unlike security) i'm ok with it running on a software platform.

The CQC price is pretty steep, but there's no plugins to buy after. With the release of 3.0 they have special $300 (I think) price for a while which a lot of people took advantage off. At that price level the decision was easier than at the current retail price.

Look around for Girder, others on this forum seem to have had good luck with it and it's a good bit cheaper than CQC.

Welcome to CT, don't be afraid to ask...I do it all the time..

 

[sic0048]

I think I will be using HomeSeer as it seems to do all I need and more but a a cheaper initial cost than CQC. I was very intrigued by CQC until I saw the cost. 600 is a little much for me to start off with. HS2 more cost effective for me now and I can always upgrade to Pro if I need it. HS also supports more of the technologies I am interested in for future expansion than CQC does, according to the HA Technology Comparison Spreadsheet.

I would still like to hear from others on this topic. So please post as I have not committed to anything yet.

Thanks,
Brian

Compatability with existing/desired hardware is a huge benefit. So the decision may be easier to make if some solutions (like CQC) don't support your goals. That being said, be sure to look around on the CQC forum, especially the beta driver forum because there are a lot of existing drivers that have been created that do not appear in the official release yet. This is generally due to one of two reasons: 1) The driver writer has not prepared the proper documentation and given it to Dean for inclusion into the official release or 2) there are only a couple of people using the "beta" driver and Dean generally wants a wide range of people testing the drivers to make sure they work without any quirks before including them in the official release. In either case, it doesn't mean the drivers are buggy or problematic. Most of the time drivers released like that are very dependable and work as advertised.

IMHO, one of the big advantages to CQC is the inclusive pricing vs a-la-carte pricing of some of the other providers. But each person needs to look at each solution and find out which is better for their needs. I for one would never say that CQC is the perfect solution for all people.

 

[pete_c]

Welcome to the forum Brian.

Historically I have been playing with HA specifically X-10 since the late 1970's. Around then and into the 1980's it was just a X10 timer. Sometime in the 1980's I used a computer. Very basic application connected to an X-10 controller running Windows 95. I still have the computer & program. The computer was a very small point of sale machine (286/386).

Sometime in the 80's I decided to purchase an alarm panel from a company called Excalibur. This panel was unique in that it had speech and numerous zones. At the time I was able to configure each window/door etc with a speech bite. I remember long conversations with the product company owner relating to integration of X10 with this panel. He did provide me with some prototype information at the time (mid 80's).

I was able to somewhat integrate this panel with X-10 a bit but in limited ways.

Into the 1990's I read about a new HA program called Homeseer. I started to play with it and initially ran it on a 486 computer. One of the features was TTS and I thought that was a great feature. Some time after moved HS to a non legacy (USB only) overclocked AMD 600Mhz machine (I believe I still have it). At the time I integrated with the already speaking security system. Security was still primarily managed by the security system. I was able though to read some basic status via HS at the time. As any HA hobby I kept adding and testing new plugins and applications. HS would run fine. I pushed it a bit though with the "need" for it to do more. Doing this would sometimes cause hiccups and sometimes the lights wouldn't work according to a schedule that I had set up. I would get frustrated and stabilize the server figuring out what went wrong. 90% of the time it was myself that had caused the hiccups for whatever reasons.

FF to a new home in the early 2000's (two here and there). Still playing as always with the HS server decided that I wanted the outside lights to follow a schedule that I didn't want to play with any more but I still wanted to be able to control the lighting in the house. Sometime before purchasing / building new home decided to purchase an HAI Omni Pro II. I read somewhere that it would integrate with HS but I could have it run independantly. The hardware was a little bit different and offered some basic HA "stuff". Not what I was used to with Homeseer but enough for me. I decided at the time to connect my HVAC to it and started to add a bit at a time. This while still adding to HS.

Today I have less than 100 lines of programming in the HAI panel but it does some neat stuff integrating it with sensors, HVAC and Homeseer. I am still upgrading and changing HS. It's stable for me more today than it was years ago. But due to my age I don't change it 20 times a day. I still have my basic lighting/HVAC 70% controlled by the Omni Pro II and some of the more detailed scripting for lighting is done by HS. There is much more interaction between the hardware and the software but I sill prefer to have them both. The failover for my playing around with the software is the hardware and the only reason its being used in that manner is because of my addiction to HA.

I can't really say how much I have spent to date on HA. (just say last 5 years). Its more than 1K but guessing less than 10k. (very round numbers).

It's an enjoyable hobby and I am always learning.

CocconTech users provides great insight and offer a large spectrum knowledgebase to the hobby of Home Automation.

 

[ano]

Hello everyone. My name is Brian and this is my 1st post here. I became interested in HA a few weeks ago because I am looking for a solution to manually control and override my pool filter while away from home. I originally was thinking an x10 application but then I need a server running in order to have 24/7 control no matter where I am, via the internet. So I figure if I am going to invest in something that substantial I might as well get more complex and start to automate my entire home, little by little. I have done lots of reading in the past few weeks. I have decided to utilize UPB technology instead of x10. I also want to start with a system I can expand upon. It seems most here utilize either an ELK M1G or and HAI Omni series controller. I also found the most popular software based controllers are Homeseer, CQC and Main Lobby. Now onto my question:
Why would one choose a software based controller over a hardware based controller or vice versa? Is one better than the other? Does one have more capabilities or functionality than the other? Or does one need both? It seems the software based, even with building a server to run it is a lot less expensive that an ELK or HAI controller. I have lots of pc and electronics experience so configuring a server and connecting relays and sensors is not a difficult task for me.

Like I said, I want to start small but I want to get the right setup so that I can add onto it later on. I do not want to buy something now that I can not use later. My overall goal is to control the pool, hvac in my house, some lighting, indoor and out, as well as maybe a few zones of audio, mostly outside. Things like water sensors for the basement would be cool too. I currently have a cctv and dvr system that I am not looking to integrate, at this time. I have a security system, a Napco Gemini 1632 panel that I can upgrade to the 9600 if need be. I am willing to change to a different system but from what I have read the hardware controllers are nothing more than a security panel with some expansion ports on them. Do I really need to spend 1,400 dollars for an HAI security panel?

Hi Brian:

A few things I learned from years with home automation. First, it's really not about either hardware or software, because in a full setup, you need both. A PC is a great programming device, but its lousy at interfacing to hardware, and that is where a panel comes in. Motion sensors, door, window sensors, and many more are all required to make a PC system smart, and many inputs are a piece of cake to connect to a panel. I have 64 zones, and I can't imagine hooking that to a PC, nor do I trust the PC to call the fire department should my smoke alarm trip when I'm gone. You should strongly consider using one panel and one software page to add functionality, or you will always be wishing you did.

I have HAI for a panel and others use ELK with success. There are pros and cons for both.

On software the differences between CQC and HomeSeer are huge. I used HomeSeer for about four years, and I've switched to CQC about a year ago. Without a doubt, HomeSeer is far more powerful, and easier to use, and the web interface (non existent on CQC) and the user interface is far better on HomeSeer. So what's not to like? Two problems. First, I fell that the core of HomeSeer has gotten so complex that Rick and Rich have lots of trouble keeping it all working. I don't think at any time in 4 years it all worked like it should. There were always pending bugs that were eventually fixed but ALWAYS led to more bugs. New versions would sometimes come out daily, but always bugs. Its like rolling the dice anytime you upgrade, will the new bugs be worse then the ones fixed? Read through there board, you'll see the pattern.

The second HomeSeer problem is that many of the plugins you pay for are written by 3rd parties, and many are not well supported. And guess what, these have bugs as well. Good luck getting most fixed. Even the HomeSeer supported plugins, like the HAI plugin, for example, were buggy and seldom updated. HomeSeer connects to HAI via a serial connection, which didn't work good. Every other company (including CQC) connects to HAI via TCP/IP which is so much better. I gave up waiting for HomeSeer to update their interface.

CQC has fewer plugins, no real web interface, does less than HomeSeer, but what it promises, it actually does, always. And one big benefit. Almost all plugins (called drivers in CQC land) allow you to not only view the source code, but you can modify it, and run it. For example, both HomeSeer and CQC have an LED board plugin. HomeSeers is much more feature packed, but like most HomeSeer things, it had bugs, and wasn't really supported. The CQC is simple but didn't support 2-line signs like mine. I modified the code myself, and added the needed features myself, and it has worked great ever since.

Now CQC is not without problems either. It can't use VB like HomeSeer, is far more complex to learn, it doesn't easily support a web interface and there is no iPhone interface. It also has no phone interface like HomeSeer Phone. But, it does work, and to me, that was the most important. Also, Dean, the developer of CQC is always responding on the chat board and is very very responsive to problems and fixing them. And almost never does a new version bring new bugs with it.

I'm really NOT recommending one over the other, but I'm hoping to give you a framework so you can evaluate both, and you now know what to look for while you read over the boards. I recommend you try both for a month before deciding on one or the other. Make sure the plugins you rely on work and are actually supported. And remember, first impressions can be VERY misleading.

Oh, PS. CQC does occasionally go on sale so keep your eyes open near holidays and special times of the year.

 

[Macrosill]

Hi Brian:

A few things I learned from years with home automation. First, it's really not about either hardware or software, because in a full setup, you need both. A PC is a great programming device, but its lousy at interfacing to hardware, and that is where a panel comes in. Motion sensors, door, window sensors, and many more are all required to make a PC system smart, and many inputs are a piece of cake to connect to a panel. I have 64 zones, and I can't imagine hooking that to a PC, ....

This is what I was afraid of. I do not have the funds to spend 600 for an ELK panel or 1,400 for an HAI panel in addition to keypads to replace my existing alarm along with the additional expense of a pc with HA software and sensors just to start.

If this is the case I will have to place my HA project on hold, for a long time.

 

[Macrosill]

On a side note, what can I do with a HS server and no hardware panel? Remember I am only looking to break into the HA scene, not install a complete system in my house next week.

 

[sic0048]

You can do a lot with just a software based system and no alarm/automation panel. I was using CQC for about 3 years before I finally bought an alarm system (which happened to be an ELK - but I didn't have an existing system already). It is nice to have "house status" via the alarm arming status, but I was doing a lot even before that.

So don't worry about taking it in small steps. In fact, it is probably better to start out small and make sure everything works. Nothing is more frustrating that trying to add a bunch of improvements and then having to troubleshoot everything becuase something isn't working.

 

[drozwood90]

CQC until I saw the cost. 600 is a little much for me to start off with. HS2 more cost effective for me now and I can always upgrade to Pro if I need it. HS also supports more of the technologies I am interested in for future expansion than CQC does, according to the HA Technology Comparison Spreadsheet.

beware of the homeseer credit card plugin with many plugins priced at 20+% of the cost of hs2 software, you can quickly reach/exceed the price of CQC.

Depends on how DIY you are...or what you are trying to do.

Personally, I bought HS, and then I wrote a LOT of my own stuff. It saved me coin, but now it's customized. Some stuff I bought...but only because the solution DID do what I wanted...so for the price I felt it was worth the cash.

--Dan