Software vs Hardware controllers

[Rupp]

This is what I was afraid of. I do not have the funds to spend 600 for an ELK panel or 1,400 for an HAI panel in addition to keypads to replace my existing alarm along with the additional expense of a pc with HA software and sensors just to start.

If this is the case I will have to place my HA project on hold, for a long time.

Marcrosill,
Don't let these guys scare you off from a new hobby. You can get started relatively inexpensively using X10 as many of us did and still use today. I use HomeSeer with a mixture of X10, Z-Wave, UPB, and Insteon and it is as stable as a rock. If you start with X10 and slowly grow your system it's a fun hobby and can be done without blowing the bank account. Also if you know any vbscript or VB.net you can roll your own HomeSeer plugins and not have to buy an additional plugins. Also contrary to what the nay sayers state the majority of HomeSeer users own less than 3 or 4 plugins and many are free. I've been using HomeSeer since it was introduced and I own 3 plugins and I have my whole house automated from my blinds and garage door to my house doors (using the new Schlage Z-Wave locks) and it didn't break the bank. Dip your toes in an you will not look back.

 

[electron]

Rupp, in all fairness, it didn't break the bank because you started early and got cheap upgrades He would have to pay at least $219+$40 (HS + UPB plugin), which isn't exactly chump change.

Bottom line, if you are serious about home automation, it will cost you. There are cheap alternatives such as HouseBot and Girder, but with home automation, you need to think ahead, figure out your long term plans, so you don't invest in the wrong product. I would probably start with a good software package (they all have trial versions, try them, don't listen to us as this is a personal decision/opinion!), and some cheap I/O device (i.e., a used Ocelot) until you are ready to invest in a big system such as the M1 or OmniPro.

 

[TrOjAn]

.....

beware of the homeseer credit card plugin with many plugins priced at 20+% of the cost of hs2 software, you can quickly reach/exceed the price of CQC.

Yup, I did notice that. I figured if I start buying a bunch of plugins over time I would just get Pro. Right now though, HS2 should suffice as all I am looking to do is get control of my pool.

Brian,

Its true the HS plugins can add up, some are worth it (ACRF2) and some are not ( better not say) but there are alternatives that you wont find on the HS forums as they are banned and any mention gets deleted very fast.

Take a look at http://bladeplugins.no-ip.org/ where you can find many cheap and free plugins.. Good luck in your quest for home automation,

TrOjAn

 

[scriptx]

You may want to try j9 as well. It is free while in beta and when compared to the others it is much easier to setup. As an example, I got an elk, USB uirt, jrmc, setup in 20 minutes. I gave up with homeseer after hours of just trying to get jrmc working.

If you can figure it out, I would also recommend girder.

 

[pete_c]

I only decided to go with the HAI panel after many years (since the late 70's) of utilizing a software/PC setup. Your best value for the money relating to HA would be as mentioned before starting a bit at a time. Initially all I cared about was the lighting. I slowly added powerline switches until the entire house was covered. It was really only after lighting changed from optional to something I really didn't want to play with and purchasing a new home did I get the HAI panel. I remember bugging HAI relating using new powerline technologies many years ago.

You wrote about pool automation. A computer setup would be easy, non-invasive and later on adaptable to a HW panel.

Lighting though is a good intro because there is a lot out there relating to methodology both in hardware and software. The following is a personal synopsis relating to the HA evolution of my lighting control.

1 - Controlling lights with a simple X-10 controller with timer to X-10 switches - late 70's-80's.
2 - using software - configuring the X-10 device DB, on and off times using stuff like minutes after sunrise/sunset times. 80's-90's
3 - having the option to create detailed events with the interaction of "other" type of X-10 devices (like wireless motion sensors) - 90-s 2000's
4 - today I have "imported" some of the events which used to be run on my HA server over to the HAI panel just so that I don't have it running on the HA server. Very basic stuff - after the outdoor lights go off (according to their schedule) - The HW outdoor motion sensors trigger events both in the panel and on the HA server. Different variable values do different things - simple ones on the HAI box - more complex on the HW.

If you are looking to just automate your pool or just your lights you can definitely start a little bit at a time at a relatively low cost just using a computer/software. It really is better to start off this way. At my age I see my setup is relatively stable to the point that I am making changes/updates/adds less and less. So if I cause a problem say relating to something I introduced 3-4 years ago along with associated scripts or events or plugins I am having to look at my notes as to why I set it up the way I did.

 

[ano]

Hi Brian:

A few things I learned from years with home automation. First, it's really not about either hardware or software, because in a full setup, you need both. A PC is a great programming device, but its lousy at interfacing to hardware, and that is where a panel comes in. Motion sensors, door, window sensors, and many more are all required to make a PC system smart, and many inputs are a piece of cake to connect to a panel. I have 64 zones, and I can't imagine hooking that to a PC, ....

This is what I was afraid of. I do not have the funds to spend 600 for an ELK panel or 1,400 for an HAI panel in addition to keypads to replace my existing alarm along with the additional expense of a pc with HA software and sensors just to start.

If this is the case I will have to place my HA project on hold, for a long time.

I didn't mean to dissuade you, because I think most of us here started with one piece at a time. Others have said get HomeSeer or CQC first, I tend to be on the other side of the fence. I would say buy HAI or Elk first if you have limited funds. The reason is, you can start with a panel, and a mid-range HAI Omni IIe will work well, and with a few door magnet switches, and a few motion detectors and some wiring, you can have a security system which can reduce your house insurance costs. Next its really easy to add on some X-10 switches or lamp modules and you have yourself an entry-level home automation system. Both the Elk and HAI let you write programming to do many tasks. Wire in an HAI thermostat and now you can control your HVAC. You can call the system remotely and control lights and the temps. Then from there, you can add-on. You may never get to the level where you need CQC or HomeSeer. You can do a whole bunch without these products.

So the question, is your house pre-wired for a security system? Do you have the skills to add the wires? Or maybe wireless would be the way to go. This will take some basic skills, so if your completely untechnical, maybe don't take this route, but if that's the case, HomeSeer and CQC may not be for you either.

Start simple, just keep the long-range plans in the back of your mind. The great thing is, if you don't have much money, but have some time and skills, you can do most of the install yourself.

 

[Dean Roddey]

BTW, just one correction, CQC is now $495, and that includes a year of upgrades. Or you can do $595 and get three years of upgrades as part of the initial price.

 

[Rupp]

Rupp, in all fairness, it didn't break the bank because you started early and got cheap upgrades He would have to pay at least $219+$40 (HS + UPB plugin), which isn't exactly chump change.

Good point but in 10 years from now $259 will seem cheap as well.

 

[cgull]

Some people like having security and core automation in a single low power panel. I personally tend to be in that camp, where you use the panel as your core for all your important stuff, then use a software package to supplement it with the nice fluffy stuff like customizable touch screens (although Elk and HAI now have a certain level of that as well now), TTS, AV, HTML based stuff like weather, traffic, etc, etc.

I've been confused about this for a while (still am a little) and what you said here really helped me out. When you say 'core automation' though, can someone give me an example of this? (this is the part that is still a little confusing)

I definitely see the benefit of the CQC/HS systems as providing the displays, AV coordination, etc but I think my confusion comes in when the capability of controlling the same device exist in both the CQC/HS and ELK/HAI systems. Lighting for instance (or HVAC, etc): Would both the CQC/HS and the ELK/HAI systems be able to control the lighting controller directly but maybe perform different functions? Or would there be only one HA system connected directly to the lighting controller and the non-connected HA system would have to go through the connected one? From petec's post, it seems like a sensor can be connected to both systems and each system may have different responses...possibly both responses may have something to do with lighting.

I'm trying to think of examples that might get the relationship between the two through my thick head! What about the common scenario for ELK/HAI where an announcement is made if the garage door is open at a certain time and no movement is detected in the garage? Would the logic be handled by the ELK/HAI or HS/CQC?

What about having a set group of lights come on and an announcement made when the driveway sensor is tripped?

If, say, both of these scenarios are best suited for ELK/HAI, what additional actions would make this a candidate for CQC to control certain aspects? I've re-read this thread (and many others) several times...sorry for being so slow in picking this up!

 

[sic0048]

Logic can be handled in by either device (the hardware or the software). The advantage to putting logic in the hardware device is that the device is more likely to be functioning (ie no computer to crash). The disadvantage is the limited rule space and limited logic commands available in most hardware devices.

Software devices have virtually unlimited rule space and also tend to have more complete logic commands available. I use CQC and have been for the last 4 years or so. I can honestly say that the CQC server has never been down unless it was due to something I did (rebooted the computer, or changed something that didn't work, etc). Once a system is stable and left alone, the odds of it crashing are very low (speaking for CQC at least since that is the software I have personal experience).

I think most people that own both a hardware and software device end up with logic commands in both.

 

[123]

... I think most people that own both a hardware and software device end up with logic commands in both.

Ditto.

HA software offers sophistication, ease-of-use, and extensibility. Here are two examples of scheduling that might be difficult to achieve with a hardware-based controller. Create two tasks and schedule them as follows:

1. Task 1: Every Labor Day.
2. Task 2: Every Full Moon in December.

The challenge is the calculation of a non-fixed-date holiday (Labor Day) and phases of the moon (Full Moon). If the hardware controller lacks these features it is unlikely you wil be able to add them. Most HA software will handle complex scheduling (sophistication, ease-of-use). If it doesn't, it is highly likely that you can add them using the software's programming language (extensibility).

 

[Steve]

I've been confused about this for a while (still am a little) and what you said here really helped me out. When you say 'core automation' though, can someone give me an example of this? (this is the part that is still a little confusing)

Typically what I mean by 'core' is stuff that you really depend on like lighting. So, what I believe is if you can only choose EITHER a panel OR a software package, and you need security as well, its a no brainer to get the panel and do everything you can there. If you already have security, its a tougher choice but depending on the exact situation I would still lean toward a panel, even if something like the Lumina. In and ideal world you will have both a panel and a software package. Depending on how flexible they are you will need to put things in one place or the other (for sure you will put fluffy stuff like TTS, weather and traffic pages, etc on the software) stuff like lighting, HVAC control, etc can go either or BOTH. While personally I tend to try to put as much as I can on the panel, the absolute best is to have redundancy. Again depending on the systems you choose it may be possible to put all the important stuff in both places and setup a 'heartbeat' between the two. Setup one (like the panel) as primary and if anything should happen to it you can fail over to the pc. Certain stuff on the pc may be able to fail over to the panel but as already stated it probably won't be fancy logic stuff, but yet still possible to failover to the panel to provide at least basic functionality.

Let try an example (off the top of my head so maybe not that great). Let's use irrigation/sprinkler as an example. Lets say you prefer to have it on your pc as a primary control but it is setup to where iyt can be controlled by both the panel and pc. So say the pc turns a zone on and then dies and is incapable of then turning it off. If there were a heartbeat between the pc and panel, the panel could see the the water still on and then turn it off. Sure this is over simplified and there are lots of maybe better ways to do irrigation but hopefully it was just a simple example to illustrate the point.

 

[pete_c]

Typically I put simpler tasks (a relative term today versus 20 years ago) on the HAI OmniProII panel. Take lighting.

HAI
1 - If x minutes after sunset turn on landscaping lights.
2 - if after midnight and before sunrise and if X motion sensor gets triggered turn on landscaping lights for 20 minutes.
3 - if after midnight and before sunrise and if garage 1 or 2 is opened then trigger all outside lights on, garage lights, laundry room, etc for 20 minutes.

Receive an HAI event via a hardwired IR HAI sensor - trigger a HS event.

HS
1 - if doorbell (or front door motion triggers) rings do a TTS annoucement in the house, take a video, txt page/email.
2 - Do a CNN screen scrape every 5 minutes and if there is a "hot" news event notify me via TTS and TXT.

Recieve a HS event trigger a HW connected device (like HVAC).

A lot of methodolgies come from what other people do. A lot of times you want to do something related to HA. I typically look how other folks have done it. (IE Garage doors HA). I may do it the same way tweaking it so that is works well with both HS and HAI.

 

[Macrosill]

I just wanted to give everyone who replied here an update. I have decided to start off with HomeSeer Pro. I think it is the best solution for my current needs and situation. A couple of reasons is initial cost coupled with the fact I already have a home security system. For starters I am only going to automate my pool next year, so the server will only be required to run during the pool season, until I decide to automate more of the house as time and money allow.

Thanks to everyone who took time to make suggestions and reply to my questions.