Solar power anyone?

[iostream212]

Hello CT,
I was looking for opinions/experiences regarding solar
systems. I had been previously under the impression that you’ll never break
even on the investment. Also I had doubts if the system could generate enough
to satisfy my power hungry 2500sqft two story home. I pay $600 average monthly
for electricity, and as high as $900 in the summer. 

I live in Northern California so sun is not an issue, especially
during the summertime. I also have a large roof facing the right direction to
take advantage of the sun.

For those who have done it: Is this a wise investment? Did
you ever break even and if so how long did it take? Is your electricity bill
$0? Were you able to negate the monthly equipment payments due to the reduction
in your electricity bill, or were you still paying extra?

Thanks for any insight.

 

[damage]

we put in a 3.7kw array almost 3 years ago.  net cost after rebates & tax credits was a little over 12k paid in full.  we use 600-750 kwh per month and the first 2 years, the panels generated 75% and 67% of our electricity usage resulting in savings of $1100-$1200/year.  our utility PG&E uses a tiered rate plan based on usage.  our strategy was to get a big enough system to keep us in tier 1 & 2 (the cheapest rates 12-13 cents/kwh) - tier 3 is 2.5x higher and tier 4 is 3x higher.  if we sized it any bigger the breakeven would be much longer.  our breakeven will be around years 8-10.  at some point we plan to get an EV and that will get us to breakeven a lot faster.
 
i think of the array as a 12k investment that has an 8-9% tax free rate of return every year without market risk.  if you know of any better risk adjusted, legal investments, please let me know  obviously, if you're financing or leasing, your return will be lower.

 

[Frunple]

Westinghouse makes a diy setup. Have no personal experience yet but I hear a lot of good about it. Will be the way I go soon.

 

[iostream212]

Thanks for the info guys. I'll have to do more research and make sure I can get the results I desire without breaking the bank. Will update when I move forward.

 

[dgage]

Frunple,
 
After your post I looked up the Westinghouse DIY system and it looks pretty nice...that is until I saw a review on Amazon that says it needs to be connected to the grid and if the grid is down, the solar array won't work.  Westinghouse has a FAQ where they mention their system doesn't work offline due to the complexity of batteries and the like.  Seemed like a good idea but one of the advantages to solar is having power when others don't.  Looks like I will have a lot of learning to do when and if I ever look at doing my own solar project.
 
David

 

[Frunple]

dgage, I think you'll find most solar systems work that way now. It's more of a "pay for use" system now. I tried to get a system like you are thinking and I was laughed at. They don't really use batteries anymore unless you really want to pay a lot, a real lot.
So what it does is you take the difference between what you use and what you generate and you either pay the difference or you have a credit.
All of these systems are generating power for your power company to use. So you will not have power when others don't from solar.
 
BTW, I was looking to use the grid as my backup and the solar as my primary.

 

[electron]

Do you have a link to the Amazon product page?
 
As for the battery thing, many systems are designed to use the grid as your battery, so it's more about saving money and getting a ROI ASAP vs going off the grid (which many of us would probably like to do).

 

[dgage]

Wrong site.  Lowe's had the review.  Take a look at the only review with a star off and the first review mentions the system won't work during a grid power outage.
 
http://www.lowes.com/SearchCatalogDisplay?storeId=10151&langId=-1&catalogId=10051&N=0&newSearch=true&Ntt=westinghouse+solar
 
I hardly ever have a power outage (years?) but it just doesn't make sense to me to install solar without having some provision for off grid usage during a power outage.  Maybe I'll come around because I understand the expense but it will take time to live with that shortcoming.
 
David

 

[gatchel]

The cost difference and on going maintenance to handle an occasional power outage doesn't usually make sense financially. The special inverter, the batteries, etc... you could buy a small portable backup generator for much less and still have the benefit of solar when on the grid.

 

[Frunple]

Basically what you end up with is two meters. One for use from the grid, one for power created by the panels. Make sure you generate more than you use and you'll never pay for power again!

 

[damage]

Basically what you end up with is two meters. One for use from the grid, one for power created by the panels. Make sure you generate more than you use and you'll never pay for power again!

 
depending on your utility rate structure that may not make much sense.  if you figure the total cost of your solar array (including a new inverter every 10 years) and the lifetime power generation of your system, you may find that your cost/kwh will exceed the price you are paying.  this is why we sized ours to keep us out of the tier 3 and higher rate levels.  not sure why you'd need 2 meters but figure on adding an additional $1-2k for installation of a 2nd meter (based on my cursory research for getting a separate meter installed for EV charging), the cost of your batteries, their replacements and charging/storage losses over the 25-30 year lifetime of your panels.

 

[tmbrown97]

The issue of not being able to use your solar when grid power is out was an eye opener to me and it came up here on CT during another recent thread about solar, so I did some research to understand why... and basically it's a limitation of any normal grid-tied system, so that shouldn't be a knock against the westinghouse if the other aspects of it look good.
 
iostream - much of what you'll read about the ROI is from people who live where power is MUCH cheaper and don't have the insane tiered rates we have.  Since Tier I is close to $.10/kwh and Tiers 3 & 4 get up to roughly $.41kwh, that's 4 times what most of the country pays on even their highest tiers.
 
I'm also surprised your bills are quite that high - that's where I'm at in one of the 4,000sq ft homes.  I've talked to people in this neighborhood who are all over the spectrum - from never over $280 to people like me (and apparently you) who see the $600-$900 prices... and the worst part is, with those $.41/kwh rates, the difference in usage is honestly pretty small - you're just paying 4x as much so something like a single computer can cost $35/month.
 
As said above, your trick isn't necessarily to eliminate your electric bill - I foolishly looked at that in the beginning and the price tags blew me away.  What makes more sense was to eliminate the higher tiers of usage to keep you lower - so say you get your electric bill down to $150 and you pay a monthly rate of $300/month towards your solar investment, and now you've come out ahead.  You have to do the math to see what makes the most sense.
 
I love the idea of a DIY solution - I'd do that in a heartbeat if I didn't need to put all my panels on the roof of a 2nd story - that's about 25-30' off the ground, so probably not gonna happen... but honestly I'd love to work with these system to get a feel for how they work and how they install, so if you go that route and want a hand, I'd gladly swing by and offer a hand just for the experience.  The only thing that's stopped me from doing this so far is the larger financial commitment - I don't like financing and I've been putting money into other parts of the house.

 

[damage]

if you want to get experience installing a system and can travel down to the SF bay area to do it (since both you guys are up near Sac i'm assuming?), you can volunteer with sunwork ( http://sunwork.org/ ).  i don't think they have anything scheduled in the near future ( http://sunwork-04.eventbrite.com/ ), they did have 3 installs this month.  i did 1 install with them a few years ago and did pretty much everything: installing the inverter, practicing finding studs in someone else's roof , installing the mounts, racks, panels, conduit & running wires.

 

[RichardU]

Even if you have a grid tied system, there is nothing to stop you from buying as many golf-cart batteries as you like, charge them with grid/solar and run an inverter from them when the power is out to power critical circuits. If it is a long outage, you could also physically disconnect your solar panels from the grid system, and connect them to the battery charger.
 
And thanks for making me feel better about my power bills. I average about $400 spring/fall and up to $900 in the summer, but my house is 10,000 sq ft.

 

[dgage]

RichardU - That is what I want the ability to do.  If there is a humongous storm where the power out for a week plus (Sandy recently), it would be pretty bad to have $10K+ in solar panels on the roof but still be without power.  I don't necessarily want a battery system but I would want the ability to disconnect/reroute so I can at least use solar if the power is out.  If I could figure that out, then it would be a no brainer (although when I get to it is another story).
 
David