Some questions about running conduit

[apostolakisl]

Future-proofing is important. I agree, Lou. I ran conduit for future runs, but with the walls wide open while building my home in 2007, I decided not to fill up the conduit with cables. The conduit is there for any future needs.
 
Kevin

 
No harm in running a cable or two along the same path as your conduit if you know you want it (at least for now) and are concerned about filling the conduit up.  Only thing is when the day comes to retire that cable, I guess you just chop it off and shove the tail back in the wall.

 

[Del91574]

The most universally accepted way to have empty conduits run in a house with no issues is to terminate them at an enclosure/box at the beginning and end of the run, assuming that you're not talking about a riser in a house/closet/etc.
 
The next way, barring termination and assuming bare conduit, is to use rock wool to "fill" the end of the pipe and use fire caulking/putty to seal the end of the pipe. Downside is what is the result when you need to enter the conduit, not to mention typically makes a mess.
 
Usually conduit is to allow additional cabling to be pulled in over time, but you need to oversize a bit and don't have a bunch of bends.

 

[tmbrown97]

interesting theories on the use of conduit...  I do a lot of commercial and residential - and if I were building a home today, I'd wire 90% with Cat6a and not stress - but run extra jacks everywhere (I like to have at least 2 jacks on 2 walls in each room so you can rearrange furniture and still connect anything) and I'd run conduit to any location where I suspect I might ever want a TV... then I'd plan for chases between floors and across large spans.  I'd never run conduit for things like smoke detectors and motions and things like that.  
 
The idea is to plan for anything that'll change in the next 20 years or so.  While even HDMI is pretty new, it only took a couple years for there to be ways to get it over Cat6 if needed and at full quality.  The market will follow what's commonly installed in homes - and most people won't have conduit - so you'll always see ways of distributing content over the Cat5/6 that's in a majority of the homes.  And - when the time comes to make some changes, don't sweat it - drywall repair is a whole lot less scarier than most of the population thinks!  I'm fine cutting a few holes every 10 years to make major upgrades.

 

[Del91574]

People keep stressing about pulling X standard cable for video or Y standard for ethernet. The smartest pull would be to install fiber, even if it's "dark" at this point. While it does take a little to swap topologies or convert some formats to fiber, even in houses that we wired 10-15 years ago using the first gen smurf cable, I've yet to run an application that exceeded what was in that bundle. The extreme end of the spectrum with HQ video, with the fiber there, it's never been an issue.
 
There's already been some talk about standardizing the distribution of video services from source to STB's using both coax and ethernet, I'm not sure if anyone's actually agreed on it unilaterally with all the manufacturers yet.

 

[electron]

Can you give some examples of affordable devices which allow us to run various protocols over fiber?  I do like the idea of running fiber, but the tech is pretty expensive.

 

[Del91574]

Best I can steer, without taking out the entire playbook would be to look at ComNet's line card.

 

[apostolakisl]

interesting theories on the use of conduit...  I do a lot of commercial and residential - and if I were building a home today, I'd wire 90% with Cat6a and not stress - but run extra jacks everywhere (I like to have at least 2 jacks on 2 walls in each room so you can rearrange furniture and still connect anything) and I'd run conduit to any location where I suspect I might ever want a TV... then I'd plan for chases between floors and across large spans.  I'd never run conduit for things like smoke detectors and motions and things like that.  
 
The idea is to plan for anything that'll change in the next 20 years or so.  While even HDMI is pretty new, it only took a couple years for there to be ways to get it over Cat6 if needed and at full quality.  The market will follow what's commonly installed in homes - and most people won't have conduit - so you'll always see ways of distributing content over the Cat5/6 that's in a majority of the homes.  And - when the time comes to make some changes, don't sweat it - drywall repair is a whole lot less scarier than most of the population thinks!  I'm fine cutting a few holes every 10 years to make major upgrades.

 
 
Ditto on pretty much all of that.  But I would still run conduit to all the locations you might want anything considered to be a "tech" item.  While work2play is pretty much correct to say that slicing into drywall isn't as scary as most people think, it still is a PITA, multi-step process.  And your paint sheen will never match so you'll need to repaint the whole wall.  And also if you have texture on the wall, the match is never quite perfect.  Both the paint and texture matching are big issues on walls that you might typically view from a tangent position.  No matter how perfect the color/texture match is, the light reflects different off of a newly finished wall as compared to an aged wall.
 
The thing is, it just isn't very hard to run conduit.  The extra work involved in doing your entire house in conduit is less than the work to try and pull a single medium difficulty wire after the fact.
 
And Work2play is correct to say that most providers will cater to the format that most of its customers already have (after all, they do have to sell to them), however, there probably will be some compromise when you don't use the latest technology.
 
Fiber has lots of bandwidth, but it is not at all diy friendly when it comes to terminating.  And you also have to translate into the fiber signalling format at the one end then back out of it at the other end, since virtually nothing at the consumer level natively uses fiber aside from your toslink stuff (which seems to be losing steam as a format from what I see out there).

 

[tmbrown97]

Ditto on pretty much all of that.  But I would still run conduit to all the locations you might want anything considered to be a "tech" item.  While work2play is pretty much correct to say that slicing into drywall isn't as scary as most people think, it still is a PITA, multi-step process.  And your paint sheen will never match so you'll need to repaint the whole wall.  And also if you have texture on the wall, the match is never quite perfect.  Both the paint and texture matching are big issues on walls that you might typically view from a tangent position.  No matter how perfect the color/texture match is, the light reflects different off of a newly finished wall as compared to an aged wall.

 
 
"I" can't match paint or texture to save my life... I've tried in every place I've ever lived, and I've gotten it close, but never perfect.   That said, last year I had some warranty work done on my 6yr old home - there was evidence of water in the 2nd story wall, so the homebuilder cut holes all over every wall on that side of the house - small holes, big holes, one entire wall in the Master Bath - to look for mold, place humidity sensing data collectors, etc... and then a local company called JLS Environmental came and cleaned up the mess - and let me tell you - you'd never know they were here.  They didn't re-texture or repaint much outside of their actual repairs, and with the different walls they hit, there were about 5 different paint colors involved - and these guys are pros - you just can't tell.
 
So - I've concluded that I'll do the cutting and the wire running, but when it comes time to close it all up, I got their number and they do side work, and their supervisor is OK with it... 

 

[wkearney99]

The smartest pull would be to install fiber, even if it's "dark" at this point. 

 
I strongly disagree.  For several reasons.  
 

1. It's a hassle to put ends on the fiber.  Yes, it's gotten 'less worse' in recent years but it's still nowhere near as simple as wire (and likely never will be).  
2. Converters are few and far between and they're expensive.  
3. The bandwidth myth.  Yes, there's the potential for quite a lot of capacity on a fiber link.  But the problem is none of the converters to go from fiber to 'something else' have ever been designed to handle more than one protocol.   So you'd be back to having to pull several pairs of fiber in order to handle the different protocols.  
4. Converters require local power.  Schemes like PowerOverEthernet or just plain analog signals make it trivial to send the signals.  Fiber would require powering converters on both ends of the links.

So I'll take UTP (CAT/whatever) over fiber every time... save for one.  And that's for putting ethernet in a separate building.  Nothing beats being able to have an electrically passive link possible with fiber.  That way any stray voltage doesn't fry gear on both ends. 
 
Yeah, it's handy to have a single fiber for optical audio but only because you've got source gear far from the amp.  Otherwise I'd never really bother with fiber in a residential setting (or any others?).

 

[apostolakisl]

"I" can't match paint or texture to save my life... I've tried in every place I've ever lived, and I've gotten it close, but never perfect.   That said, last year I had some warranty work done on my 6yr old home - there was evidence of water in the 2nd story wall, so the homebuilder cut holes all over every wall on that side of the house - small holes, big holes, one entire wall in the Master Bath - to look for mold, place humidity sensing data collectors, etc... and then a local company called JLS Environmental came and cleaned up the mess - and let me tell you - you'd never know they were here.  They didn't re-texture or repaint much outside of their actual repairs, and with the different walls they hit, there were about 5 different paint colors involved - and these guys are pros - you just can't tell.
 
So - I've concluded that I'll do the cutting and the wire running, but when it comes time to close it all up, I got their number and they do side work, and their supervisor is OK with it... 

 
I bet, however, if you look at the tangent, especially with a light at the other end, you will be able to see a different sheen where the repairs were done.  It is pretty much impossible to match the sheen because it ages, even if you are using left over of the same gallon of paint.  This is especially a problem in hallways where you almost exclusively view the walls from a tangent position.  Whenever you cut into sheetrock, you should always consider this problem and whenever possible cut your holes in locations where you would never see the wall from that angle.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Man, hate to go off to much off topic (though it is sort of valid for this thread) but "I" can't match paint to save my life either.  I've tried matching numbers off the can, cutting the wall section, then bringing it into the hardware store to 'match it' with their analyzer/machine, even having a guy just 'eyeball' it till he got it right (well in the shop anyways) and always, in the end, it doesn't quite match!
 
This has been on of the LOWEST WAF factors of any of my automation project installs!
 
How hard can it be?  We can send a remote controlled vehicle to Mars, but have yet to master this technology!
 
Oh well, nice to know it just isn't me that has this problem!

 

[Del91574]

I strongly disagree.  For several reasons.  
 

1. It's a hassle to put ends on the fiber.  Yes, it's gotten 'less worse' in recent years but it's still nowhere near as simple as wire (and likely never will be).  
2. Converters are few and far between and they're expensive.  
3. The bandwidth myth.  Yes, there's the potential for quite a lot of capacity on a fiber link.  But the problem is none of the converters to go from fiber to 'something else' have ever been designed to handle more than one protocol.   So you'd be back to having to pull several pairs of fiber in order to handle the different protocols.  
4. Converters require local power.  Schemes like PowerOverEthernet or just plain analog signals make it trivial to send the signals.  Fiber would require powering converters on both ends of the links.

So I'll take UTP (CAT/whatever) over fiber every time... save for one.  And that's for putting ethernet in a separate building.  Nothing beats being able to have an electrically passive link possible with fiber.  That way any stray voltage doesn't fry gear on both ends. 
 
Yeah, it's handy to have a single fiber for optical audio but only because you've got source gear far from the amp.  Otherwise I'd never really bother with fiber in a residential setting (or any others?).

I'm the opposite side. With a good enough tool, it's not that big of a deal to put ends on fiber. For most applications, less mission critical, epoxy connectors aren't used quite as often as days past, with the downside being a higher insertion loss. I will agree that fiber isn't a common homeowner project, but I'd rather put an Amp end on a fiber before making up a pile of Cat 6 ends by hand.
 
Where I've used fiber, power isn't an issue, it's bend radius. There's plenty of converters that can handle multiple data protocols or even different signals on the same fiber, with many vendors offering such. The problem is whether or not the protocols meet what you're trying to send without being converted to another format, where the problem typically lies.
 
It's a myth, scratch that, halftruth, that fiber between buildings is electrically passive. The fiber typically specified for burial is gel filled, which is typically conductive. A lot of the more robust fiber putups usually have a metallic sheath around the bundle. Most conduit fills with water after installation. In a good enough hit, sure, the fiber itself is electrically non-conductive, but everything else it's typically in contact with is the problem.

 

[tmbrown97]

To the point about the paint matching, I agree - I've tried matching paint from a different can a bunch of times and the only conclusion I could ever come to was just to paint the whole wall as Lou has mentioned.  That, and when I did all the retrofit work to this place, I was able to find plenty of spots around the house where I could cut a perfect 2-gang hole, then come back behind and just put 2-gang blanks on.  Someday they'll get closed up, but I'm in no rush...  All the spots I found were inconspicuous, like under the vanity, in the pantry, behind a door, above the cabinets, etc - so they're barely noticeable.  My most challenging of all was the one run where I had to dismantle a vent so I could access the chase next to it and feed above the ceiling to get into a tight space.
 
As for the fiber discussion - I'm with wkearny99 - and honestly, I'd have to say it fits for the vast majority of the readers of this forum.  The people who would benefit from Fiber are the ones with super-sized houses and who'll have the money down the road to pay the high dollars for the media converters vs. trying to retrofit their designer walls.  Those people also aren't likely to be DIY'ers.

 

[wkearney99]

I'm the opposite side. With a good enough tool, it's not that big of a deal to put ends on fiber. For most applications, less mission critical, epoxy connectors aren't used quite as often as days past, with the downside being a higher insertion loss. I will agree that fiber isn't a common homeowner project, but I'd rather put an Amp end on a fiber before making up a pile of Cat 6 ends by hand.
 
Where I've used fiber, power isn't an issue, it's bend radius. There's plenty of converters that can handle multiple data protocols or even different signals on the same fiber, with many vendors offering such. The problem is whether or not the protocols meet what you're trying to send without being converted to another format, where the problem typically lies.
 
It's a myth, scratch that, halftruth, that fiber between buildings is electrically passive. The fiber typically specified for burial is gel filled, which is typically conductive. A lot of the more robust fiber putups usually have a metallic sheath around the bundle. Most conduit fills with water after installation. In a good enough hit, sure, the fiber itself is electrically non-conductive, but everything else it's typically in contact with is the problem.

 
It's a lot more electrically passive than a chunk of copper. Put it this way, when we had a 36 pair bundle of copper and a 6 pair of fiber going between buildings, it was the POTS gear (on both ends) that got fried when a light post in the middle got struck by lightning.  Dumb placement of pull box because some past idiot thought it was a good idea.  Fiber gear kept right on working without a hitch.  We replaced the POTS gear with fiber over one of the spare pairs.  It added the complication of requiring backup power in the building for phones (whereas the old POTS setup powered them from the PBX). 
 
Same deal up at a friend's cabin/outbuilding setup.  We strung buried fiber along with some coax.  TVs were toasted in both places but the ethernet gear was perfectly fine. 
 
These only mention about lightning problems, there are other interference and other factors to consider as well.  Fiber's great for this.
 
I still don't buy the argument on fiber in a residence with converters.  The people with the money will still want to avoid fiber for traditional AV and network purposes.  Fiber just brings along more baggage than it's worth.  I mean, yeah, if you're looking to soak them for the high priced gear, then maybe.  
 
But we can agree to disagree and accept the other's opinions.