surge suppressors

[Ira]

Any suggestions on surge suppressors specifically for LAN wiring, satellite TV, and/or telephone? I'm upgrading all of my UPS's, and most of my new ones don't have protection for anything other than the electrical system. I'm also getting the ZeroSurge devices to put ahead of the UPS's, but they only protect electrical wiring, also.

So what I need are surge suppressors for the other three types of wiring. The device doesn't need to protect all three. I'm okay with different types of surge suppressors for protecting different types of wiring/devices if that's what it takes.

What do you guys do for protecting something like an ELK M1G that is mounted in a recessed enclosure? Do you depend on a whole house surge suppressor?

Thanks,
Ira

 

[Peter_H]

Any suggestions on surge suppressors specifically for LAN wiring, satellite TV, and/or telephone? I'm upgrading all of my UPS's, and most of my new ones don't have protection for anything other than the electrical system. I'm also getting the ZeroSurge devices to put ahead of the UPS's, but they only protect electrical wiring, also.

So what I need are surge suppressors for the other three types of wiring. The device doesn't need to protect all three. I'm okay with different types of surge suppressors for protecting different types of wiring/devices if that's what it takes.

What do you guys do for protecting something like an ELK M1G that is mounted in a recessed enclosure? Do you depend on a whole house surge suppressor?

Thanks,
Ira

For my two can's I have the Leviton surge protected outlets.

I also have one behind the flat screen that is mounted on the wall in the living room.

Eventually, I'll get a whole house surge protector.

 

[Steve]

A whole house surge suppressor with transient filtering is a great start, but you are right and many people overlook the other parts. Total Protection Solutions makes a whole line of protectors from whole house all the way through. I have their whole house but have not implemented the ancillary stuff yet. Elk also has a line of telephone suppressors. If you have DSL, Channel Vision makes a nice DSL filter/phone suppressor for a can.

 

[Ira]

A whole house surge suppressor with transient filtering is a great start, but you are right and many people overlook the other parts. Total Protection Solutions makes a whole line of protectors from whole house all the way through. I have their whole house but have not implemented the ancillary stuff yet. Elk also has a line of telephone suppressors. If you have DSL, Channel Vision makes a nice DSL filter/phone suppressor for a can.

I stumbled across the TPS stuff yesterday. Their stuff made me realize I may have a difficult environment to protect. My utility service meter loop goes into an ATS (that has a service disconnect in it) in my shop which is 150' from my home. From the ATS, power goes to a load center next to the ATS for my shop. Then it goes from the shop load center underground to a load center in my home. That means both load centers (shop and home) are actually subpanels of the ATS. There are four conductors running between my home load center and my shop load center, and between my shop load center and the ATS. The neutrals in both load centers are floating, meaning they aren't grounded to the box or the ground bus (or is it "buss"?). The neutrals and grounds stay isolated all the way back to the ATS where they are joined, and a single ground wire goes from the ground bus in the ATS to a grounding rod near the ATS. There is no ground rod near my home.

So...many of these surge suppressors require a connection to a ground. Some of the Total Protection Solutions (phone/LAN/sat) require the ground wire to be no longer than twelve inches. Some of theirs say they have to be within four feet of the service entrance, which I can't do.

I happen to have one of the Channel Vision DSL devices (P-0411), but haven't retrofitted my home to use structured wiring yet. I also have an OpenHouse/ChannelPlus H611 phone line suppressor (my DSL service is on its own phone line) that isn't being used. Neither of these require a ground. I wonder how good they really are. Maybe they are good enough for the phone lines. Interestingly, neither of them contain a ground wire.

 

[westom]

So...many of these surge suppressors require a connection to a ground. Some of the Total Protection Solutions (phone/LAN/sat) require the ground wire to be no longer than twelve inches. Some of theirs say they have to be within four feet of the service entrance, which I can't do.

What does a protector do? Does it filter, absorb, or stop surges? Not after you read the numbers. Will that 2 cm part stop what three kilometers of sky could not? Will its few hundred joules absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? Of course not. How to quickly identify a protector whose numbers claim near zero protection. It has no dedicated wire for that short connection to earth.

No earth ground means no effective surge protection. No way around that reality. Your protection must be installed where all electric lines meet the earth ground (ATS). Do you also need earth ground rods installed within feet of that box - to upgrade to meet and exceed earthing requirements? The effective protector makes a short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth.

What does a protector do? From the NIST (a US government research agency):
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these
> protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
> divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

What does a protector without that short connection to earth do? Gives a surge more paths to find earth destructively via adjacent appliances. Yes, it is a surge protector. It does put the surge on all other wires. It is not an effective surge protector with no short path to earth ground. So the surge now has more wires to find earth destructively via appliances.

Protection is about the energy. Either a surge is harmlessly absorbed in earth - does not enter the building. Or that surge is inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances - with or without plug-in protectors. Your choice. Spend less money per protected appliance using one 'whole house' protector. Or spend tens or 100 times more money for protectors that do not even claim protection in their numeric specs. Some will even cite subjective claims from the sales brochure - ignore the spec numbers that say near zero protection and near zero filtering. Those are the overwhelming majority who recommend ineffective protectors.

The NIST then describes those plug-in protectors and UPS bluntly:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting
> the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be useless if
> grounding is not done properly.

A protector without that short connection to earth does what? No wonder they hype it with a big price and no numeric protection claims. They are not selling surge protection. They are selling a very profitable myth. The best surge protector in the world is useless with proper earthing - that always required low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground.

Your telephone should already have a 'whole house' protector installed for free. Why? Because the superior solution costs so much less money and is so effective. But again, what makes the telco protector effective? It also must make that 'less than 10 foot' connection to the same (single point) earth ground.

Cable TV needs no protector do have protection. Cable must be hardwired short to the same earth ground before entering the building.

What provides the protection? Not a protector. Cable does not even need a protector. Earth ground provides surge protection. A protector is, well, Dr Kenneth Schneider:
>Conceptually, lightning protection devices are switches to ground. Once a threatening
> surge is detected, a lightning protection device grounds the incoming signal
> connection point of the equipment being protected. Thus, redirecting the threatening
> surge on a path-of-least resistance (impedance) to ground where it is absorbed.
>Any lightning protection device must be composed of two "subsystems," a switch
> which is essentially some type of switching circuitry and a good ground
> connection-to allow dissipation of the surge energy. The switch, of course, dominates
> the design and the cost. Yet, the need for a good ground connection can not be
> emphasized enough. Computer equipment has been damaged by lightning, not
> because of the absence of a protection device, but because inadequate attention
> was paid to grounding the device properly.

But again, an overwhelming majority don't know this - and yet recommend a UPS anyway. Earth only one 'whole house' protector to have massive protection. The UPS is only for power to protect unsaved data.

 

[Ira]

No earth ground means no effective surge protection. No way around that reality. Your protection must be installed where all electric lines meet the earth ground (ATS). Do you also need earth ground rods installed within feet of that box - to upgrade to meet and exceed earthing requirements? The effective protector makes a short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth.

What does a protector do? From the NIST (a US government research agency):
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these
> protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
> divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

What does a protector without that short connection to earth do? Gives a surge more paths to find earth destructively via adjacent appliances. Yes, it is a surge protector. It does put the surge on all other wires. It is not an effective surge protector with no short path to earth ground. So the surge now has more wires to find earth destructively via appliances.

Protection is about the energy. Either a surge is harmlessly absorbed in earth - does not enter the building. Or that surge is inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances - with or without plug-in protectors. Your choice. Spend less money per protected appliance using one 'whole house' protector. Or spend tens or 100 times more money for protectors that do not even claim protection in their numeric specs. Some will even cite subjective claims from the sales brochure - ignore the spec numbers that say near zero protection and near zero filtering. Those are the overwhelming majority who recommend ineffective protectors.

The NIST then describes those plug-in protectors and UPS bluntly:

I've seen you post this same info on several different websites. I'm not disagreeing with it, but I have to work within the confines of what I have.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, my earth ground is 150' from my home, next to my shop where the utility service entrance is located. The setup is...

Meter --> ATS w/ service disconnect --> Shop load center --> secondary disconnect --> 150' underground --> home. The neutral and ground are isolated downstream until they reach the ATS.

I don't have cable TV. I have a satellite dish. It is 175' from my earth ground.

My phone wire comes in at my home, also, so it is 150' from my earth ground. It is grounded to a junction box where my electrical service comes out of my home on its way underground to my shop. The junction box is connected to the ground wire going from my home to my shop. I have considered asking the telco to rerun my phone service so that it comes in at my shop near the earth ground, since I have a spare cat5e cable running underground that I can use to get my phone back to my home.

I'm no longer depending on my UPSs for protection. That's why I am buying devices like ZeroSurge and Brick Wall for important devices. I also plan on putting a whole house surge suppressor at the first load center downstream from the ATS (which doesn't contain any breakers).

Ira

 

[Ira]

I just realized something...around here almost all telco lines are underground (hurricane country). I don't mean just from the box to the home, but even the trunk lines. There are probably few if any overhead lines within 10 miles or more. Along with that, many are fiber except for the last run to the house. In my case, my DSL line is fiber but my two phone lines are copper (I think).

I imagine all the various telco boxes along the roadside are well grounded. So with that said, how likely is it that I would get a surge over the phone lines?

Ira

 

[Steve]

Well, I was about to say that my NID is on the wall near the meter and it has a ground wire of maybe 6' or so directly to the ground stake but yet my Elk still somehow got zapped. The funny (not really) part is I just went outside to check it to be sure it was how I remembered and when I gave a little tug on what I thought was the ground wire it came up in my hand - hard to explain, but basically the wire was cut so I guess I didn't have a grounded NID after all although I have no idea how long its been like that. And BTW, I say all this because its also hurricane country and all telco is underground for miles. I am certainly no expert but I've always been told having multiple stages is a good thing so whatever makes it through the first level will get lowered that much more by the second, etc, so in that regard it would not hurt to have some sort of extra protection at the panel I guess.

 

[westom]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, my earth ground is 150' from my home, next to my shop where the utility service entrance is located. The setup is...
Meter --> ATS w/ service disconnect --> Shop load center --> secondary disconnect --> 150' underground --> home. The neutral and ground are isolated downstream until they reach the ATS.

A building downtown that provides phone service to everyone will suffer about 100 surges with each thunderstorm - and no damage. Why? A protector within meters of earth ground AND - to make that protection even better - up to 50 meter separation between the protector and electronics. What are you posting? 50 meters is about 150 feet. But then I am only repeating (this time with numbers) what was posted previously.

Why do you have a problem doing what is routine where surge damage cannot happen? You could install another 1000 protectors throughout the electric service. And still the one that will be effective is the one in the ATS - where the neutral wire connects less than 10 feet to earth ground.

Telephone (provided for free) 'whole house' protector must not be grounded to a breaker box. Wrong ground. It must be grounded to the earthing electrode. Yes, a breaker box also connects to the same earthing electrode. But it is electrically different for same reasons why that 150 foot separation between protector and electronics increases protection. A relevant word is impedance.

Somehow the Brickwall or Zerosurge will stop what three miles of sky could not? Of course not. Furthermore, its safety ground wire means a surge can bypass that series mode filter. A series mode filter can enhance single point earthing and the 'whole house' protector. But by itself, it provides little if any protection.

Everything stated about cable TV also applies to the satellite dish. Not only must a satellite dish meet the same requirements listed for cable. The dish also must also be earthed - its own short wire from dish to earth. Rarely does a dish installer meet code let alone install it to avoid surge damage.

Putting a whole house surge suppressor at the first load center downstream from the ATS accomplishes nothing without a short connection to earth. Again, no surge protector is protection. Do not assume the box solves anything. All protection is - each protection layer is defined by - single point earth ground. You could install 1000 protectors elsewhere on the AC service - and have no more protection. Why? No box is protection. Each protection layer is defined by only one thing - the single point earth ground.

We are discussing 'secondary' protection. With one 'whole house' protector or 1000 protectors spaced everywhere- it is still one protection layer. Another protection layer also should be inspected - the 'primary' protection system:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

In response to other posts - does not matter whether utility wires are underground. Surges enter via either cable AND must have the same single point ground protection. An application note demonstrates that concept:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/te...tes/tncr002.pdf

Demonstrated in that app note are two structures. Each has its own single point ground. Any wire - even underground - that enters a structure must first connect (directly or via a protector) to that ground.

How are telephone appliances most often damaged? To have damage means both an incoming and outgoing electrical path. That ELK M1G can be damaged by a surge entering on AC electric. Then outgoing to earth via a telco 'whole house' protector. Many see damage on the telco side; assume the surge entered on phone lines. Forget that a surge current is first flowing through everything simultaneously when only something in that path is damaged. Surges incoming on AC electric most often cause damage on the telco side of a phone appliance.

Layering protection is important. 1000 additional protectors are still the same one protection layer - defined by what provides protection - earth ground.

 

[Ira]

Why do you have a problem doing what is routine where surge damage cannot happen? You could install another 1000 protectors throughout the electric service. And still the one that will be effective is the one in the ATS - where the neutral wire connects less than 10 feet to earth ground.

Putting a whole house surge suppressor at the first load center downstream from the ATS accomplishes nothing without a short connection to earth. Again, no surge protector is protection. Do not assume the box solves anything. All protection is - each protection layer is defined by - single point earth ground. You could install 1000 protectors elsewhere on the AC service - and have no more protection. Why? No box is protection. Each protection layer is defined by only one thing - the single point earth ground.

Not sure I understand what you are saying. Most of the whole house suppressors I've seen connect to a circuit breaker in the load center. My ATS doesn't have any circuit breakers except for the main service disconnect and the 200A breaker that the line from the genset connects to. So I don't have any breakers that I can wire the suppressor to in the ATS.

The first downstream load center is maybe two feet from the ATS. The ground wire between that load center and the ATS is maybe four feet long. The ground wire from the ATS to the ground rod is probably seven feet long. If I have to add in the length for the ground wire between the suppressor and the ground bus in the load center, that's maybe another two feet. All total, that's about thirteen feet of ground wire between the suppressor and the ground rod connection. Are you saying that because I'm over the ten foot mark, it's not worth doing? That thirteen feet is still less than 10% of the distance to where power enters my home.

Ira

 

[westom]

Not sure I understand what you are saying. Most of the whole house suppressors I've seen connect to a circuit breaker in the load center. My ATS doesn't have any circuit breakers except for the main service disconnect and the 200A breaker that the line from the genset connects to. So I don't have any breakers that I can wire the suppressor to in the ATS.

You can attach a small load center (breaker) to the first panel so that the 'whole house' protector makes a lower impedance path to earth. A protector in that other panel four feet away may work. But what can and cannot be done involves too many details not provided here. Even possible are a 'whole house' protector in the meter pan.

What you do know is that the protector must close to single point earth and distant from electronics. So that energy seeks earth ground via single point earth - does not seek earth via household electronics. Other factors that compromise protection (increase impedance) include wire splices (wire should be continuous to earth ground), sharp bends, and (this may be relevant in your case) the ground wire must not be inside metallic conduit. Metallic conduit can increase wire impedance.

Some 'whole house' protectors (newer designs) require no connection via a circuit breaker. Options exist. But I believe you now appreciate where attention should be focused. What you actually do should be in consult with a professional electrician because your setup is rather unique and many have other unmentioned variations.

Also possible is to earth a 'whole house' protector where wire enters each building. The earth ground and neutral remain separate. But each is connected to a local earth ground rod that only the protector connects to. Your situation has many additional anomalies. Earthing every wire (including neutral and safety ground) to earth via a protector makes earth beneath that building more equipotential. Neither safety ground nor neutral actually connect to that local ground - except through a protector. But again, local wire codes must be considered. Creating equipotential beneath the building is more difficult (requires extra consideration) due to how your buildings are wired.