UPB - Adding Fan Control with missing wire

[PetroDude]

Currently, I have a few UPB switches (US11-30s), a lamp module and an appliance module. I am comfortable doing the basics of the wiring. However, I just ran into a problem with the existing wiring for one room.

This room has a ceiling fan with a light kit, but only one switch on the wall which cuts power to the fan and light. I want to control the fan and light seperately, but running new cable from the fan would not be easy so I am trying to avoid that. I want to automate this light anyway so I thought I would take care of two issues at once.

Here's the catch (at least for me). I checked the wiring at the switch. there is one 14/3 cable coming in. The neutral is capped and the switch is wired with the red and black wires. My thinking is that it just an odd version of a switch loop. So I checked the wiring at the fan. There is only one 14/2 cable coming in to this. I have checked everywhere for a connection between these two wires. I have looked into all outlets and every light fixture on the circuit. I can't find the junction. I guess the junction is in some hidden junction box. I even turned off power and did some resistance checks to make sure there wasn't some other HA device in the system that I didn't know about.

I have a US11-30 and a dual rocker face plate I wanted to use.

My questions:
1) I've seen the PCS FMD2-4. Is that the best option to use in the fan to pair with the switch. Any other suggestions. I don't have anything purchased yet.

2) On the off chance that I find the junction, what would be the best wiring scheme to use.

3) Since I can't find the junction and running a new wire from the fan would be almost impossible, I've found an outlet where it is possible to run wire between there and the switch. If I do that, I assume I just connect the white and black wires from the line coming in to the same colors on the US11-30 and then program that using UPStart to control whatever device I use from Question 1. Is that correct?

Thanks for any help.

 

[liftn]

Did you test the wire to see where the power is initiated, the light or the switch? Where is the neutral? Doesn't the UPB switch need a neutral to operate?

 

[tmbrown97]

OK - does the current switch have separate controls for the fan and the light or does it just control the entire load (fan plus light) with a single actual switch?

 

[PetroDude]

The current switch controls the entire load.

I've tested the circuits. The neutral in the switch that is capped off is dead. That is why I think it is just a switch loop. The power is evidently initiated in the unfound junction box where the 14/3 cable goes to the switch and the 14/2 goes to the fan/light. That is why I think I should run a new cable from an outlet to get power (black and neutral) to the switch.

 

[tmbrown97]

The current switch controls the entire load.

I've tested the circuits. The neutral in the switch that is capped off is dead. That is why I think it is just a switch loop. The power is evidently initiated in the unfound junction box where the 14/3 cable goes to the switch and the 14/2 goes to the fan/light. That is why I think I should run a new cable from an outlet to get power (black and neutral) to the switch.

Yup - sounds like you have an end-of-run switch - I have a couple like that in my house, and it's a PITA. There's no neutral so UPB won't work and there's no separate load control.

I haven't solved my issue yet, but I planned on just wiring in a UPB Dimmer and UPB Relay (not the switches but the wire-in controllers) in a junction box in my attic just before the fan for the separate loads, then using a different UPB switch down below by just stealing power/neutral from a nearby outlet - it won't control a local load but it'll accomplish the end goal.

 

[ano]

What I have done, assuming you can get power at the switch, is use a 2-40 switch in the wall with a split faceplate. The 11-30 can't control two links, which is what you need. Then in the fan install a wired-in UPB module. One should fit in the fan base, two never will. Use the module to control the fan, and the switch to control the light. Its much better to control the light directly, although in one case I do control a dimmer remotely, and it does work.

Now, having said that, there is a problem that comes up sometime when you use a UPB relay module to control a fan, but there is a solution if it comes up.

 

[PetroDude]

OK, I think I've got it. I'll have to order some gear and give it a try.

 

[felixrosbergen]

I'm not expert on UPD, but would thing that simply leaving the wall switch on (or tying the wires together and put a blank faceplace on), putting 2 inline modules near the loads and using other switches (where you can get neutral) to control them woudl be the way to go.

Not sure how easy it is to get 2 inline modules in place there through.

Good luck.

 

[tmbrown97]

MavRic - a lot of times, if you have no neutral, it's because you have an End-Of-Run switch - meaning up at the light, rather than hooking the black into the load, they hook it into the black of another wire that goes to a switch, then use the white to bring it back and hook the white up where the black would normally go (people don't always understand what I mean - but you can look it up by searching for End Of Run switch).

Now, normally you can do a variation of what you're talking about... disconnect the switch first, then at the fan, disconnect the wire that creates the switch circuit, and just hook all whites up together, all blacks, etc - and use in-line modules like you mentioned somewhere near-by. In that case, you'll now have a hot and neutral at the switch - just no dependent load - so you can use that to power your switches.

It's weird that the OP can't find where his 3 wires turn into two - not sure where the junction point would be if not in the box...

ano - what problems are these you're talking about that can arise from the relay module in the junction box? I'm curious before I do that to myself.