Upb phase coupler

[pete_c]

Dan,

What signal strength numbers do you get on the opposite phase connected UPB switches?

I am not done yet with the second floor. I decided to put in a couple of HAI UPB switches on the first floor (opposite phase) today and wondering what those numbers will be.

With the numbers of 10 or so that I see on the opposite phase UPB I have no problems with the switch. It was only a few days back that I saw noise and wasn't able to get to the switch. Its not happened since then.

Installed 2nd UPB switch on opposite phase this morning. Noticed on the HAI switch (versus PCS/SA) you have to tap the top rocker very quicking 5 times. Much faster than the PCS/SA UPB switches. Signal strength on this switch is 5/5 and no noise. It is sitting next to the Kitchen under the counter LCD TV/Satellite receiver.

Unplugging the LCD/Satellite box and wine opener charger transformer increased strength to 6/7.

 

[ano]

Pete,

Those numbers look terrible. For this and my last house, I typically see over mid 40's. 45-48 is typical.

Do you have problems controlling the switches? In my house, it doesn't matter what I run, I don't seem to have any issues with anything (i.e. running the dishwasher didn't have an effect on my signal level).

--Dan

I'd LOVE to have those numbers. Without a coupler my numbers where 2 - 3 on the opposite phase, and while some things worked, it was very unreliable. With THREE couplers put in parallel, I get up to about 5 or 6 at worst on the opposite leg, and everything works reliable. Then I added the repeater, and I get 20's or 30's at worst. Life is good.

 

[ano]

Signal strength on this switch is 5/5 and no noise. It is sitting next to the Kitchen under the counter LCD TV/Satellite receiver.

Unplugging the LCD/Satellite box and wine opener charger transformer increased strength to 6/7.

A 5 or 6 is O.K. as long as you can keep your noise down. A 10 is better, of course, but not required.

 

[pete_c]

I am not seeing any noise. I've only seen noise one night so far. I plugged the LCD/Satellite/Wine opener transformer back.

Finished Upstart programming and did another communications test. Ended up with 6/11 signal strength.

Noticed with the HAI UPB switch side mounted ground strap it was a bit tight in the metal double gang box / double metal mud plate. Having a thinner plate (metal) was easier though than a thicker plate (plastic).

Ano you mentioned on another post:

According to SA, at the time, adding more than one non-inverting coupler doesn't help at all, but adding more than one inverting coupler does help, and it helped me.

Would it benefit me then to just get another inverting coupler for better signal strength?

 

[ano]

I am not seeing any noise. I've only seen noise one night so far. I plugged the LCD/Satellite/Wine opener transformer back.

Finished Upstart programming and did another communications test. Ended up with 6/11 signal strength.

Noticed with the HAI UPB switch side mounted ground strap it was a bit tight in the metal double gang box / double metal mud plate. Having a thinner plate (metal) was easier though than a thicker plate (plastic).

Ano you mentioned on another post:

According to SA, at the time, adding more than one non-inverting coupler doesn't help at all, but adding more than one inverting coupler does help, and it helped me.

Would it benefit me then to just get another inverting coupler for better signal strength?

If a 6 is the lowest, and you don't have any noise, you should be fine, but a 5-6 is the minimum. If I was to do it again, I would just put in the split-phase repeater and call the problem solved, but it is $400.

I think I'm backward in what I had said previously. As I remember it, according to Simply Automated at the time, multiple non-inverting couplers can be cumulative and that is what I found, but I remember them saying it doesn't help for inverting couplers. The exception was if you had multiple panels, and you could use one in each.

It sounds like you have the problem I had in my house, the signal on the PC interface side is great, but the opposite side is weak. Switch the PC interface to the other side, and its the opposite. So I would either leave it or add the repeater. Years ago Simply Automated was experimenting with using two PC interfaces, one per phase, but I don't think it ever became a product.

 

[pete_c]

Thanks Ano.

So far the lowest signals are sitting at above 5 or so; but I do not know what I'll see later on. I was hoping to get another Inverting phase coupler but looks like I'll to find a couple of non inverting phase couplers.

Found a quote that states the HAI/PCS UPB phase couplers are of the non inverting type.

There are two types of phase couplers - inverting and non-inverting. SAI makes the inverting style and PCS / HAI offer the non-inverting style. SAI says that inverting phase couplers work better when the utility transformer is less than 200 feet from the home and they also say that you can put in multiple inverting phase couplers in homes with multiple breaker boxes. There is some evidence that installing multiple non-inverting phase couplers in the same home can be detrimental. If the transformer is more than 200 feet away, then a non-inverting phase coupler might work better. We've had very mixed results using phase couplers. In most cases, either style phase coupler will improve signals, but depending upon the installation, one might improve them more than the other. On occasions, we have had users try both styles and keep the one that works best for them. Sometimes, we have used phase couplers on hand that we'll use for this testing, so contact me if you want to consider this. I can't promise anything, but we can try. There was another comment on the thread about an inverting phase coupler actually lowering signal levels. We have seen a few instances of this also, but it seems that it impacted stronger signals and didn't affect lower signals much, if any. If it lowers strong signals some, but helps lower signals, then we'll accept that compromise.

 

[pete_c]

Purchased a PCS phase coupler yesterday....easy to switch the SA phase coupler to the PCS phase coupler.

 

[IndyMike]

A few additional notes regarding "in-phase" vs "inverting" coupling. Take this with a grain of salt - my background is X10/Insteon.

1) Inverting couplers are typically required to communicate with true 240V devices. These units do not use a neutral reference and sense differentially across the 240V phases. An in phase signal would appear the same on both phases and might not be detected by a 240V unit.

2) Newer 240V modules include a neutral reference and are able to sense communication on either phase.

3) The presence of large 240V loads (dryer, range) will cause some signal cancellation when using an inverting coupler. If you notice large variations in signal strength when a 240V appliance comes on line, it may be due to cancellation.

4) In phase couplers will not suffer from 240V signal cancellation. You may note signal loss when a 240V resistive load turns on, however this will be due to the impedance of the power line looking into a low resistive load. The effect should be minimal given the relatively low frequency range of UPB.

5) The couplers themselves appear to be isolated tuned transformer versions similar to the ACT CP000 (but tuned to a different passband). They are advertised as being able to couple UPB, X10, and Insteon. From what I understand of UPB, that's a pretty wide passband (4k to 130K). The downside here is that the device will also pass noise in that frequency range.

IM

 

[pete_c]

Thank-you Mike.

A strange occurance tonight. None of the UPB lighting came on via the OPII's schedule (with the new HAI PIM). Checked signals with the other two PIM's online. I see a lot of noise tonight and not seeing the two UPB's on the opposite phase in the panel on one and the opposite on the other.

The only 240 circuits in the home is the furnace and AC. The dishwasher, washer and dryer utilize only 120VAC circuits.

I may have found the problem. The most noise seem to come from 1 of the 4 bedrooms. Today I turned on / setup a new Zoneminder computer and wondering if its related to the power supply. Will shut it off and check signals/noise.

 

[pete_c]

Unplugged new computer last night and checked UPB signal levels. They were still low with much noise.

This morning checked again and signal levels are high with no noise.

The neighbor pool pump is very close (as the circuits go) and I am wondering if maybe thats it.

 

[Steve]

Check to see what kind of pool pump it is. If it is a Pentair or other variable speed pump it would put some noise on the line. I have not seen noise with most single speed motors.

 

[pete_c]

Not sure what type it is and will ask. I'm not sure where the pump is but will check. The stepdown transformer is in the corner piece of the lot between the two houses.

 

[IndyMike]

Hello Pete,

Unfortunately, I am not at all conversant on the subject of UPB.

I do find it odd that your signal plummets and you noise increases at the same time. Is it possible that the signal to noise ratio is simply decreasing (relative measurement rather than absolute). This might imply that you have a large signal absorber coming on line (opposite phase) that draws down your signal levels. With the signal level reduced, the noise then becomes readily apparent.

Unfortunately, I don't know of many signal absorbers that turn on and off. Most devices with EMC circuits are active when plugged in. You wouldn't happen to be using a 70's or earlier linear power amplifier would you?

 

[pete_c]

Thanks IndyMike.

The signal and noise issue is not an everyday concern. I've seen it only once since my initial installation of UPB. It lasted all evening into the morning then by afternoon the next day all was well. Initially thought it was a failing/failed transformer but the noise continued hours after I removed the bad landscaping transformer.

Since a couple of days ago signals have been good as before and no noise. Added another UPB device yesterday (appliance switch). This one is located furthest away from the PIM both geographically and via conduit. I get a decent signal on it (50) and no noise.

Pool pump mentioned could be a problem maybe because in addition to said next door pool there are 3-4 more inground pools behind my house and three in front of my house. Everyone is starting to close their pools these last few days.

 

[pete_c]

I removed the SA and installed a PCS last night and my UPB (at PIM and Device) numbers are higher now.

I currently have my fuse panel cover off doing some other stuff and was test wire the PIM to one leg of the two phase coupler circuits.

Question: Would there be any advantage to wiring the PIM on one leg of the phase coupler circuits?

Today just using the two circuit breakers with nothing else on them.