UPB, Z-Wave and Insteon - Pushing the limits

[picta]

With any wireless networking technology, there are so many variables involved in a successful installation; it’s really hard to infer whether a poster has followed all the tricks-of-trade.

That is exactly right, and by the time you finished your learning curve you may end up in a divorce

 

[tmbrown97]

That is exactly right, and by the time you finished your learning curve you may end up in a divorce

On the other hand, she may be afraid of the house and all the automation, so you may at least get to keep it - during the divorce :lol:

 

[picta]

On the other hand, she may be afraid of the house and all the automation, so you may at least get to keep it - during the divorce :lol:

If that is the plan, then yes, 100 z-wave devices is all that's needed to accomplish it :rofl:

 

[gengen]

Folks, stay on-topic, please!

That said, WAF factor IS important and I am (slightly) concerned about UPB's difficulty to flip two adjecent switches at once easily. Lately, I find myself thinking every time I turn on a light switch. It's almost as easy (and mindless) as breathing. If there is any question about that in the name of automation, it's probably not worth it.

 

[JonW]

The issue that some have reported with pressing two switches simultaneously only has to do with reporting their status. It does not affect the switches ability to switch it's load on/off.

 

[gengen]

Thanks, Picta,

I took a look at Centralite and I read a lot of documentation. But their website seems to be "stuck" at around 2008 and there seems to be no development since then. Also, there are no dealers or certified installers in my area, which is strange since I live in a major metro area. Searching for "Centralite" in the Android Market finds nothing. The Ipad App Store only shows a couple of third party integrations. I'm getting the same uneasy "past its prime" feeling about Centralite as I have with PCS and UPB...except UPB is available from more than one vendor.

 

[dgage]

Gengen,

I have been going through a similar thought process in terms of the lack of investment in UPB and perceived issues with large Zwave implementations. I am planning to use Lutron RadioRa 2 and if you do a search you might find some of my posts discussing the three technologies. Overall, Lutron RadioRa 2 has nice devices (very nice compared to Zwave and UPB) and a solid RF framework but there are downsides. The main issue is that Lutron wants you to go through a dealer or you can become a "dealer" by going through their BLAST training, which I just completed and is pretty easy and doesn't take too much time. Another downside is the lack of support in any HA software or hardware besides HAI and ELK although Dean (owner of CQC) recently announced he had setup a small RadioRa 2 network to create a driver for CQC. Note that I am a DIY consumer and don't have any of the devices being discussed, this is strictly based on my research, but based on that I am planning to purchase the RadioRa 2 Starter Kit and some additional dimmers and hybrid keypads this week for my initial install as part of my kitchen renovation.

David

 

[picta]

Thanks, Picta,

I took a look at Centralite and I read a lot of documentation. But their website seems to be "stuck" at around 2008 and there seems to be no development since then. Also, there are no dealers or certified installers in my area, which is strange since I live in a major metro area. Searching for "Centralite" in the Android Market finds nothing. The Ipad App Store only shows a couple of third party integrations. I'm getting the same uneasy "past its prime" feeling about Centralite as I have with PCS and UPB...except UPB is available from more than one vendor.

Centralite is indeed not your mainstream vendor, they seem to focus on commercial markets, like hotels. They actually field test their systems on very large installs. The hard-wired lighting is not considered a consumer product, that's why not much info is available. I don't know why centralite does not keep their website current, but they have introduced many new products since 2008, like Azelia (a zigbee wireless lighting system). AutomationOutlet sells centralite products, and if you contact the company, they will give you the rep in your area. I am using Haiku to control it via HAI OP2. Homeseer has a driver also, and since its an ASCII based protocol, you can always write your own. The other alternative is HAI omnibus system, not sure if it is on the market yet. I am not trying to sell you on centralite, but having done HA for many years and having tried most systems out there, my conclusion is that nothing can beat the hard wired system in terms of reliability and capability. This is why UPB would be my next choice - it's hard wired. I have not tried RadioRa, it looks good and may be a good product, but the cost is significantly higher. IMO, having a proven working technology of the past compared to the "promised potential" new technology is a better deal if you want to have a problem free HA, especially with a large install like yours.

 

[oberkc]

Folks, stay on-topic, please!

That said, WAF factor IS important and I am (slightly) concerned about UPB's difficulty to flip two adjecent switches at once easily. Lately, I find myself thinking every time I turn on a light switch. It's almost as easy (and mindless) as breathing. If there is any question about that in the name of automation, it's probably not worth it.

While I agree that being able to manually control a switch is still a good thing, my goal with automating is to eliminate (or GREATLY reduce) the need to do so. Perhaps, someday, I may achieve this goal.

 

[gengen]

Picta,

The HAI Omnibus system looks to be designed for European 220 volt systems with USA 110V 60Hz systems being an afterthought. All of their keypads use the square European style and they have nothing that works with Decora-style wall-plates. I think that this system is better suited for homes on the other side of the pond.

Dgage,

I also went through all of the Lutron BLAST training and was about to plunk down some $ for their starter system when I realized that there were so many other options available. Also, BLAST only gets you their partially enabled "Essentials" software rather than the full "Inclusive" version unless you take their Level 2 training class. In any case, it looks like the even the Inclusive version only has basic programmability as compared to some of the other controllers available for Z-Wave, UPB, and Insteon. (I know that its possible to control RadioRA2 from other HA systems, but I'd rather keep things simple.)

General update:

I did an inventory of my planned system and I will only have roughly 70 "nodes" give or take a few depending on the system that I will end up going with. So this may not stretch the limits of any of these systems after all.

 

[gengen]

Picta,

The HAI Omnibus system looks to be designed for European 220 volt systems with USA 110V 60Hz systems being an afterthought. All of their keypads use the square European style and they have nothing that works with Decora-style wall-plates. I think that this system is better suited for homes on the other side of the pond.

Dgage,

I also went through all of the Lutron BLAST training and was about to plunk down some $ for their starter system when I realized that there were so many other options available. Also, BLAST only gets you their partially enabled "Essentials" software rather than the full "Inclusive" version unless you take their Level 2 training class. In any case, it looks like the even the Inclusive version only has basic programmability as compared to some of the other controllers available for Z-Wave, UPB, and Insteon. (I know that its possible to control RadioRA2 from other HA systems, but I'd rather keep things simple.)

General update:

I did an inventory of my planned system and I will only have roughly 70 "nodes" give or take a few depending on the system that I will end up going with. So this may not stretch the limits of any of these systems after all.

 

[Dean Roddey]

BTW, I just posted a 4.2.900 beta release (first beta on the way towards 4.3) that has the first cut of the RadioRA2 driver in it. Though it is a RadioRA2 driver, it should work fine for Homeworks QS as well.

 

[rsw686]

The issue that some have reported with pressing two switches simultaneously only has to do with reporting their status. It does not affect the switches ability to switch it's load on/off.

While not a big deal it is annoying. I have two switches in my kitchen that I sometimes mix up. If I accidentally tun the one on, then back off, and turn on the other that status usually ends up wrong. I'm still happy with my UPB switches, but it is beyond me why the UPB protocol can't have basic collision detection, a random wait, and then resend the command.

If you could purchase RadioRA 2 without being a dealer I would most likely have gone that route. CentraLite JetStream and HAI UPB were the two I had debated. In the end a went UPB as I liked the rocker switch. However I probably should have spent the few hundred extra to test both first hand. I might have gone with the JetStream to avoid the collision issue.

 

[tmbrown97]

There's a lot of talk about the "issues" with switches - but honestly - you're going from mechanical to computerized switches - there's going to be some difference! And it's not a big deal! For your guests, they'll figure it out - most guests don't touch light switches anyways unless they're regulars and pretty comfortable in your home; and for people that live there, you slightly retrain yourselves. A double-tap on a single switch vs. palming a few switches at once is really no big deal. And UPB - one of the things that makes it so strong is that it's such an independent protocol; but that also hurts it from a Status perspective; but per a post I did recently - literally just having the $99 into version of Elve running with a PIM keeps the status of my UPB lights accurate because it learns which lights are affected by what scene and polls for status - which the M1 sees and gets the update from - so I have very accurate UPB status in my M1 thanks to Elve.

 

[drozwood90]

The issue that some have reported with pressing two switches simultaneously only has to do with reporting their status. It does not affect the switches ability to switch it's load on/off.

well, if you are using Links to control a switch, it messes it's ability to turn the load / on off. And in my experience, it is only when you hit BOTH switches AT THE SAME TIME. i.e. two fingers on per switch.