What is wrong with ELK Products inc.?

[video321]

The worst part about iTunes is it could only access 1 library (1 location) at a time. Further, you need to do something like hold down a key while starting iTunes to be prompted for the otherwise undocumented "feature."

...That is how it was the last time I had the joy of supporting it for a client

 

[elcano]

Just, to start, I don´t care much about Apple. The inertia after their supreme leader left the first time lasted about 10 years - until he returned. I think that this time it will last more. Probably 15 years. Nothing else. This could change if they find another genius-thinker-designer-abusive-maniac leader. One that comes to my mind is Elon Musk. But I dont think he would accept. Lately Elon only takes transcendental projects. Apple products are just irrelevant toys in comparison to what Elon does.


On the other hand, .Net is the dog food that Microsoft refuses to eat, and Linux is...well...you know it can be really ugly sometimes.

Going back to topic, I can relate to the OP's claim, a little, but not with his tone, or his direct challenge to Elk's management.This, is of course, my opinion.

I liked the link in the 2nd post in this thread. I didn't know that when you choose to use windows-only development tools you are excluding about 15% of the general market. Of course, demographics in the automation market can be very different to the general market.

Personally, I have not played with ElkRP and UpStart as much as I would like because it certainly can be a pain to open a virtual machine in my wife's laptop (a Macbook). I'm writing this on a Linux machine, and have been using Linux almost exclusively for the past 4-5 years (besides my Android phone and tablet). Of course, I use Windows on laptops that are given to me by an employer, but I don't install personal software there. Searching the repository for whatever I need with a one-click install and the confidence that it will not compromise my PC is a nice feeling that neither Windows nor Macs provide (wrong, I heard that the Mac App Store copied this concept recently - will Linus or Stallman take them to court? :rofl: ). Of course, just like when using other platforms, you dont find everything available for your OS. There is no complete happiness. :blush:

However, IMHO the amount of development work that is being done on portable platforms (Java, python, ruby, javascript/node.js, etc.) has no precedent in computer history. With this I mean, that you don't always have to choose to exclude other platforms. Performance is not a problem for this domain. However, I realize that low-level compatibility can be. And developing drivers for zillions of hardware devices in a multi-platform solution can be a near-impossible challenge too (I hear you, Dean).

I definitively would like Elk's solution to be multi-platform (in contrast to OP, that is requesting OSX platform in addition to Windows platform). However, I entirely respect their decision to support only Windows. After all, they probably decided their software development strategy way before it was evident that Microsoft was loosing its mojo.

A little of topic....about Microsoft, it is funny to see them repeating the same failed strategies from the past. Do you remember the first WindowsCE PDAs? They later became PocketPC and Windows Mobile. There they attempted to apply a desktop UI paradigm to the PDA/smartphone. Marketing and better CPU won the battle to the more intuitive PalmPilot, until a new contender UI designed exclusively for mobile was designed (the iPhone). Since then, they developed a beautiful version of Windows Mobile (WM7), designed from the ground up as a mobile UI. Well done, Microsoft! But, since they dont learn, now they want to apply the mobile paradigm to the desktop with Windows 8. :-D Will they sell? Sure they will. They have a strong brand, yet. But users will suffer a lot of frustration and will loose productivity even more.

 

[drvnbysound]

Practically, I can think of many things I'd priortize for ELK to work on rather than Apple support. Apple is a closed environment that intentionally discourages experimenters, hobbyist, etc through closed and proprietary products. For most recent example, the iPhone 5 forces their customers to convert from one proprietary interface to another, rather than the mini-USB interface that nearly all other phone manufacturers have converted to.

Philisophically, I support open source and standards-based products. I would vote for banning Apple products in the hobbyist, home automation world.

The only arena that Apple plays in that warrants discussion is in the phone/tablet world (I sure hope no one at ELK would even seriously discuss supporting Apple desktop world). Products that remotely interact with ELK should be via open, defined interfaces that anyone can write an app for using any platform. If there is a viable market for iPhone app, someone will develop it. Seems to me there are android app(s) out there? If ELK were to try and develop something for all phones/tablets, it should be via HTML5 -- not writing multiple apps for each platform.

tenholde

While I agree with most everything in the post above, the thing that is great about Apple is the 'standard' connector AND it's location. Yes, the end connection is proprietary, but it's the same on every device. I've had a Droid for almost 2 years and I don't know that I've ever seen a stand-alone Android dock. Sure, it's great to have a micro-USB connector and I like that I don't have to use iTunes to add new music to my phone. However, in addition to docks, there are no OEM or aftermarket manufacturers who integrate my phone into my car the way iDevices are done... This isn't an automotive forum, so what about Android docks for Whole Home audio or AVR's? I feel that a LARGE part of this is due to a having the same connector, in the same location, across multiple devices. Unless Android standardizes the location of the connector there will never be as much 3rd party integration products as there are with Apple devices. App developers already have to contend with all of the various device platforms, add the various hardware differences and it's a mess for mass integration.

 

[tmbrown97]

:hesaid: :hesaid:

Yes - it's annoying at first that Apple's connector isn't standard - but it's way more than just a charging port - it's audio out, audio in, video out, serial data, etc. And for people that complain that for the new iPhone they'll have to change, think about it - the iPod charging cable lasted as a standard for a lot longer than any of the USB charging options did! When the iPod dock connector came out, there was no standard for phone charging yet - though a few were experimenting. Eventually they standardized on Mini USB and then converted to Micro USB. And with a little time, you end up with charging cords *everywhere*. There's not a normal place we sit in our house that doesn't have one; 2 in the kitchen; 2 in each car (well, one's the in-dash stereo connector so I can listen to/watch content on my in-dash touchscreen).

Yeah - it's annoying to have to change cables, but I can deal with it... at least they provide an adapter so all our Car, Clock Radio, Boat Stereo, Whole House Audio Docks, and every other conceivable device will continue to work. Oh yeah - and they have those to begin with - nobody else does because they don't have the consistent size, the versatile dock connector, etc.

I was so anti-apple for the longest time... they got me when I found out I could get a kit that would plug an iPod into my factory stereo on my 03 Suburban *and* control tracks via the steering wheel and stereo controls like normal. Nearly 10 Years Ago! I hate iTunes - still do... but that same connector worked as I upgraded through the Mini, Nano (2 models), Classic, Touch, and eventually iPhone. Hitting the lake on the boat? Jump out, grab the iPod, plug it into the Boat's stereo - now, same thing - and same music and playlists. Then Wife wants one - so, buy another, sync same songs; done. Even better was when we switched to iPhones - now we reduced our clutter by one device and already had charging and integration cables everywhere!

I've said before - I'm no fanboy - but I can appreciate the innovation Apple has brought - and it's undeniable that they created the market; the rest of the companies are just trying to keep up. Modern smartphones? iPhone came first; Tablet craze? iPad started it. The current move to everything-touch and even Windows 8's panel screen - it wasn't new innovation; it's a catch-up attempt. The reason there are so many other players trying to compete is because it can always be argued that what Apple does isn't perfect - no USB ports; no Micro SD expansion on my phone (irritating!); and can't forget the super-high prices; but you're lying to yourself if you don't recognize that Apple is creating the markets that the others are trying to catch up to.

(and this one was typed on my Windows 8 PC).

 

[drvnbysound]

Ironically enough, I was just checking my email and found something from Pioneer Electronics. They are testing all of their current devices with the iPhone 5 and previous iPhones (4 and 4s) with iOS6
http://www.pioneerel...utm_content=car

The email also stated that, "Compatibility guides for our Home Audio/Video products and DJ products will be available soon."

I searched their site for Android compatibility and actually found more information than I was expecting...
http://www.pioneerel...d Compatibility

Basically, you can stream audio via BlueTooth from your phone over your vehicle's speakers (I do this now) but all functionality must be done via the device... so there is no real integration as Work2Play mentioned above. I'd prefer not to be fumbling with my phone to change audio tracks or select another playlist while driving... As I previously stated, I'm (currently) an Android user. :unsure:

 

[JonW]

Basically, you can stream audio via BlueTooth from your phone over your vehicle's speakers (I do this now) but all functionality must be done via the device... so there is no real integration as Work2Play mentioned above. I'd prefer not to be fumbling with my phone to change audio tracks or select another playlist while driving... As I previously stated, I'm (currently) an Android user. :unsure:

You're confusing (basic) bluetooth integration with (full) plug-in integration. When I plug my iPhone 5 into the USB in my car, I get a full UI on the nav screen for selecting by artist, album, track, etc. If I instead choose to play the music via BT while the phone is still in my pocket, then I only get basic controls on the nav screen. You have to plug the device in to get full control.

 

[drvnbysound]

You're confusing (basic) bluetooth integration with (full) plug-in integration. When I plug my iPhone 5 into the USB in my car, I get a full UI on the nav screen for selecting by artist, album, track, etc. If I instead choose to play the music via BT while the phone is still in my pocket, then I only get basic controls on the nav screen. You have to plug the device in to get full control.

LOL. I am not confusing it at all... I understand that completely, and that's exactly what I wrote.

What is written is that there is FULL integration for Apple devices, and only BT streaming for Android devices.

 

[KenN]

Bit of a sideways turn for the thread, but still interesting.

For Bluetooth, if you're looking for audio/video streaming, you need to look for your devices to support the Advanced Audio Distribution Profile (A2DP). If you want control of the streaming device from the receiving device, then you need support for Audio/Video Remote Control Profile (AVRCP). This stuff is often not clearly stated in consumer product specs, you often have to dig deep to find exactly which bluetooth profiles are supported by various products.

Even the AVRCP support has different levels;

1.0 Basic remote control (play/pause/stop/skip)
1.3 All of 1.0 plus file metadata (song/album/artist)
1.4 All of 1.3 plus media file browsing and browsing of metadata.


I had cause to do some digging and learn some of this when I was trying to pair my wife's old-ish droid phone with the car audio system. Wouldn't work and I didn't know why!


Kn.

 

[JonW]

Sorry, i mis-read your comment saying that there was no real integration like Work2play mentioned as meaning that even the iPhone didn't have real integration. Yes, you are very correct that there is full integration for Apple, but not for Android. That's really probably just a function of Apple being to market first with a controllable device prior to the Android options being available (or BT available for that matter).

 

[tmbrown97]

I'll just add - because I do have an iPhone and a now 5yr old receiver with an iPod dock connector - it's worked with all the new devices without any firmware updates; I can stream youtube through the in-dash video screen; but the most awesome of all, if that I can play Pandora via phone plugged into the receiver - and not only does the pause/play/next buttons work, but I get song title, album, artist and cover art! Kenwood (my deck maker) dropped the ball and never released a single update (in fact, only a rollback) - but thanks to the strict standards that Apple followed, not only did the interface continue to work, but it even got better over the years; and even with an iPhone 5, Kenwood will never release a new compatible iPod cable, but via the adapter, I can keep marching forward. Trash them all you want, but that's pretty awesome. I haven't dealt much with iTunes in years because I stopped managing playlists; I just let Pandora do it unless I have something specific I must hear.

 

[Dean Roddey]

On the subject of Windows 8 forcing the mobile paradigm onto the client, from what I understand the Metro interface is optional. power users on the desktop can turn it off. I definitely would. I can't imagine doing real work, particularly real development work, under that sort of interface.

 

[tmbrown97]

Continuing the sideways tangent - Windows 8 so far has been interesting (I have an advance copy of the final release; not a beta). I fear it may be another of their alternating flops because they try to introduce too much at once but the whole ecosystem isn't ready for it. At least, if they don't fix the current "experience" it will be. You're forced between Metro and a regular desktop too much; but there's no cohesion between the two. If you open a web-page from Metro vs. from the desktop, you're not in the same page - it's like they're separate apps. Also completely removing a start button and going to this new metro panel... yeah it's just weird.

But you see them following in Apple's footsteps a little in that they now include an artsy email client, video player, etc. right into the base OS. And I have to admit - it's about 50% really slick, but about 50% maddening. I will however see if I can go without altering it too much since the point is for me to know the experience that others are dealing with and how to work through it.

 

[ddennerline]

To return back to original thought, the Elk M12Go application is an improvement over original Java application. Getting Elk Keypad Remote to work reliably has been a challenge due to constant Java upgrades.

Elk should be investing capital into next ElkXEP(v2) in order to support remote/RichUI and web oriented services API. This way any type of UI can be constructed. Trying to build an Elk application requires understanding a compressed ASCII protocol and nuances of asynchronous event processing. ElkXEP is just an advanced RS232-to-IP bridge. If you look at the Vera, such an Open API automation interface exists.

Even if Elk has to come up with a slightly more expensive ElkXEPv2, I think the open nature of enhanced box may be attractive solution to platform quagmire.

 

[tmbrown97]

Elk just announced that they're working with a cloud provider - Connected Technologies (Connect One) - Maybe that'll solve your OSX issues. I haven't a clue what it looks like yet - but I can report back after the webinar.

 

[Del91574]

To return back to original thought, the Elk M12Go application is an improvement over original Java application. Getting Elk Keypad Remote to work reliably has been a challenge due to constant Java upgrades.

Elk should be investing capital into next ElkXEP(v2) in order to support remote/RichUI and web oriented services API. This way any type of UI can be constructed. Trying to build an Elk application requires understanding a compressed ASCII protocol and nuances of asynchronous event processing. ElkXEP is just an advanced RS232-to-IP bridge. If you look at the Vera, such an Open API automation interface exists.

Even if Elk has to come up with a slightly more expensive ElkXEPv2, I think the open nature of enhanced box may be attractive solution to platform quagmire.

True, however the downside of M12go and other manufacturer's products that are similar...it requires the installation and download of software onto the host computer, which isn't practical or possible on a lot of machines...like say a user is using a public or company computer.