What security system to pick for a new construction

[RAL]

Yeh, and an EMP will take out hardware too. The quality here is gray, not black and white.
 
If I understand what you are saying I have a difference of opinion about firmware vs software. firmware is software. The core of any operating system is effectively firmware. I think what most people here are referring to as software are just upper layers in more general purpose environments.
 
If that is indeed the perception then the fact that a "UL listed panel" has firmware that gets an interrupt when an electrical state changes and then "does something" with it that is relatively simplistic - like activating a digital output - does not make it any less the definition of software. And its certainly not anything special that can't be done within a commodity operating system. In fact its pretty common for an interrupt to trigger a subsequent hardware action (that is within a driver itself).
 
Certainly the response time of that - and reliability - is going to be faster and better than if the event gets propagated up the stack for some high level decision making.
 
In the end I think this entire discussion is splitting hairs. The UL listed panels IMO are just much smaller, more limited, pieces of software that by their design - and more thorough review and testing - gives higher confidence in correctness. As it should be.

 
You are right that firmware is just another form of software.  But the difference with an alarm panel is that both the hardware and software/firmware are designed and tested to meet UL and other standards the are focused on that environment.  You touched on that when you said "UL listed panels IMO are just much smaller, more limited, pieces of software that by their design - and more thorough review and testing - gives higher confidence in correctness."    And that is exactly why it can't be done well using a commodity operating system.  They have just way too much complexity to test and prove that they have the necessary reliability for a system that involves life safety.

 

[Del91574]

So lets assume that a dedicated UL listed security panel is used along with a separate but integrated automation system. Lets further assume that one doesn't want to spend as much on said security panel as Elk/OPII since that is paying for a lot of features that will never be used. Then add DIY requirement as OP and I desire - easy to obtain hardware, access to programming software and protocol specs, etc.
 
The ideal security panel would then be what? In the past others have recommended DMP (hard to get for DIY) or DSC (not open enough?). The last time I asked this I was driven towards Elk. Which doesn't  exactly fit the requirements due to unneeded features and cost but apparently the best available option.
 
The bottom line is the market doesn't really offer the right solution for either all-in-one or frankenstein.

Sure it does....
 
How about you purchase a CCure 9000 license and related hardware. UL listed for almost every application out there and is software based. Server controlled hardware and embedded security hardware, just not UL for fire, but can interface and do more than what you're looking for. There's pros and cons to each approach, however security hardware shouldn't be compromised for the widget to turn on your xmas lights or read the temperature. There's a ton of features that will never be used in almost every device or panel out there, no matter who the manufacturer is.
 
RAL nailed it with why UL testing and listing is necessary on the hardware side....and there's a reason why the companies don't go with the bleeding edge features and technology. Very rare to read about compromises as with the piece of hardware that was quoted.
 
You can have fast, good or cheap, but can only pick two.

 

[jeditekunum]

Sure it does....
 
How about you purchase a CCure 9000 license and related hardware. UL listed for almost every application out there and is software based.
 
...
 
You can have fast, good or cheap, but can only pick two.

 
This being cocoontech I'm fairly certain that high-end corporate systems are not in the scope of solutions.

 

[Del91574]

This being cocoontech I'm fairly certain that high-end corporate systems are not in the scope of solutions.

CCure and an Istar panel isn't exactly high end or corporate. Base panel is no more than an OPII and the only requirement is a server and network connection to the panel. Software license determines the functionality. You can make it act as a security panel, access control device, add I/O and interface with any 3rd party device or use selected integrations....and it's completely software based and UL listed. You can do more with an access control/security panel than a standard burg or HA panel.
 
As I said, Good, Fast, or Cheap. Pick two.
When you're looking at a sub $100 panel vs. a $500 Elk (base) or $1500 OPII, the playing field isn't level to begin with.

 

[Jeffreydof]

It is an American Standard. 5-ton. One stage not sure what that means haha. Yes, the house is already plumbed for AC - this is replacing one where the compressor went out, so he said its best to replace the whole thing since the unit is from 1998. I've heard similar things before.

And there is actually another unit for the upstairs. This covers just the downstairs.

Thoughts?

Thanks

 

[penright]

Security really should be handled by an embedded and listed panel. HA functions are generally ancillary to safety functionality. Easy enough to get actions out of a security panel to a HA controller, which is what most typically view as the more robust and reliable option, with a secondary controller providing the more granular action.

Since I am new, I can't post a link back to my introductory to give some context, but this statement is why I joined this forum. I am not new construction, but I do have a clean slate. I am looking for that HS (Home Security) and HA (Home Automation) Job separation while at the same time for the HA to use the HS inputs. My old house was a Tuxedo, which did HS great and HA OK. When I started looking for the HA controller for the new house, I wanted to use a dedicated HS (I like using the UL definition), but I wanted the HA to be able to consume the HS sensors. The HA rule processing has to be local, not cloud base. In the Smartthing forum there is a post where a guy using js.nodes and a EnvisaLink. As most of you know  EnvisaLink looks like a keypad to a lot of the basic panels. So things inputs/outputs that a panel exposes to a keypad, the EnvisaLink can consume it. So if your front door is a fault then you can sense if the front door is open or closed. I want to learn more about the Elk M1, in this post it was mention a cost of $500. The EnvisaLink street price is about $150. So add the price of a basic panel, they are not far apart. 
 
Am I missing it, I did not find any M1 focus threads. Are there? Should we start one?

 

[pete_c]

There is Elk and Leviton HAI focused threads here:
 
1 -
Elk Products, Inc (ELK)
2 -
Home Automation, Inc (HAI)
 
Here combine my HAI OmniPro 2 combo panel functions (since early 2000's) with Homeseer Software (since around 1998).  I am using all of the serial ports on the OP2 panel and with Homeseer using 16 serial ports and 7 USB ports plus whatever is connected today via the home network.
 
The OmniPro 2 is a smaller footprint than the Elk M1 and while both are different both are the only combination security and automation panels today which are unique relating to their automation control. 
 
There are no combo panels today which hold a candle to their functionality. 
 
That and many of the DIYers here on the forum have either the Elk M1 or the Omni Pro panels.