Whole house automation over CAT5
- Thread starter Zer0fun1
- Start date
tmbrown97
Senior Member
Well, you did indicate that this was for a residential system; most homeowners don't have any cabling just laying around - they have to buy it... and Cat 7 costs more than Cat 6 (more than double typically; not counting the terminations). Along those same lines, most homes don't have enterprise 10GB systems either... Something isn't adding up with what you're describing... but I'll roll with it. Do you work for blackbox, or rob their stockrooms? I run enterprise equipment in my home - mostly cisco, all gigabit w/multiple VLAN's, PoE, etc. It's way more than 99% of other residential users have. Very few businesses have even bothered with 10GB over Copper; it's way cheaper/easier to just run it over fiber today. Are you expecting to spend upwards of $20K on your wiring systems?
If you're working on new construction or a home that's easy to wire, I don't blame you one bit for not going with any wireless or powerline technologies. I'd strongly recommend ALC or one of the similar technologies (I don't know much of anything about them; my knowledge is on the retrofit stuff that doesn't require new wiring). If I had a choice, I'd do the exact same thing... I hate the sacrifices I have to make in lieu of ripping open all my walls; but alas - it's better than paying alimony/child support.
I'm really not out to rain on your parade... if you're happy working 20x as hard for all this to keep to your high standards, have a ball... but the market will cater to the mainstream and what's installed most places. That's just smart business - vendors will work towards their largest possible client base, which will be the lowest common denominator that they can make their systems operate over. Cat 7 won't even be considered for residential for *at least* 5 years... and won't be necessary, or mainstream, for 15+ years (if ever). It's still entirely possible it'll never get used (TIA still doesn't recognize it as a standard). If you had to buy this stuff today, it'd be way cheaper to install what's common today, inside conduit, and re-wire in 15 years if/when it matters.
If you're working on new construction or a home that's easy to wire, I don't blame you one bit for not going with any wireless or powerline technologies. I'd strongly recommend ALC or one of the similar technologies (I don't know much of anything about them; my knowledge is on the retrofit stuff that doesn't require new wiring). If I had a choice, I'd do the exact same thing... I hate the sacrifices I have to make in lieu of ripping open all my walls; but alas - it's better than paying alimony/child support.
I'm really not out to rain on your parade... if you're happy working 20x as hard for all this to keep to your high standards, have a ball... but the market will cater to the mainstream and what's installed most places. That's just smart business - vendors will work towards their largest possible client base, which will be the lowest common denominator that they can make their systems operate over. Cat 7 won't even be considered for residential for *at least* 5 years... and won't be necessary, or mainstream, for 15+ years (if ever). It's still entirely possible it'll never get used (TIA still doesn't recognize it as a standard). If you had to buy this stuff today, it'd be way cheaper to install what's common today, inside conduit, and re-wire in 15 years if/when it matters.
I understand your point. I did from the get-go before we even conversed. My requirements are unique and that usually means expensive. This will not change.
I would be much more interested in finding physical solutions: i.e. actual products.
If you can help me with that I'd appreciate it.
I was given a tip that AMX and Creston may have something similar to what I need.
I would be much more interested in finding physical solutions: i.e. actual products.
If you can help me with that I'd appreciate it.
I was given a tip that AMX and Creston may have something similar to what I need.
Not sure about your take on CAT7's future. Most standartizations take decades to develop decades to agree on decade to market decades to actually become a standard.
TIA will not standardize anything until IEEE feels like it and that takes market penetration.
Basically IEEE will OK TIA for CAT7 when enough people are already using CAT7.
TIA will not standardize anything until IEEE feels like it and that takes market penetration.
Basically IEEE will OK TIA for CAT7 when enough people are already using CAT7.
apostolakisl
Senior Member
Put conduit in. It will cost a lot less than CAT7 and then you will never worry about what wire you might want down the road.
wuench
Senior Member
For your lighting you should also consider home running your electrical loads and centralizing that, vs. trying to run LV wire to each switch. There are a couple of vendors that work that way, Centralite comes to mind. This avoids all the LV/HV lighting control building code issues. I always found the ones that rely on LV kind of kludgy, since you usually have to keep the LV out of the box but somehow still attach it to the switch.
apostolakisl
Senior Member
Trouble with those systems is they are very proprietary and typically do not support diy. They simply refuse to provide any of the software that is needed to program the systems. I had a friend with that setup and every time the slightest thing went wrong it was a $200 service call. And things went wrong a lot, several times he simply could not operate any lights in his house at all. And getting out of one of those systems is very challenging, he sold the house to get out.
Oh wow...
As I read it, homerunning the lighting seemed like a good idea. Maybe it still is. Actually, at the expense of power wire, that might not be a bad idea at all.
I think, engineering a small control circuitry for such a system would be a piece of cake. Unfortunatelly that would also make it proprietary, but not only that it would make it irreplaceable @ failure, unless, I would order extra PCBs which not a bad idea.
Homerunning things is generally a good idea, I think, especially if the house allows for it. If it doesn't, then making another wiring closet could work too.
I think, that looking for hardware first may have been the wrong way of doing things. I think maybe I should have started with software and then tailoring hardware to it.
When it comes to conduit systems, what does everyone use/like?
Is there a reference/books that you recommend?
I find that the problems with conduits when it comes to HAS or A/V that you really do not know what and when so you have to conduit EVERYTHING - this is quite a pain!
As I read it, homerunning the lighting seemed like a good idea. Maybe it still is. Actually, at the expense of power wire, that might not be a bad idea at all.
I think, engineering a small control circuitry for such a system would be a piece of cake. Unfortunatelly that would also make it proprietary, but not only that it would make it irreplaceable @ failure, unless, I would order extra PCBs which not a bad idea.
Homerunning things is generally a good idea, I think, especially if the house allows for it. If it doesn't, then making another wiring closet could work too.
I think, that looking for hardware first may have been the wrong way of doing things. I think maybe I should have started with software and then tailoring hardware to it.
When it comes to conduit systems, what does everyone use/like?
Is there a reference/books that you recommend?
I find that the problems with conduits when it comes to HAS or A/V that you really do not know what and when so you have to conduit EVERYTHING - this is quite a pain!
wuench
Senior Member
Yeah, you aren't going to run conduit for absolutely everything. But if you have a point to point places where you are doing an AV drop from attic or basement, or central runs to the attic or basement from your comm closet then it is a good to do conduit there if you can vs. just running the wire. The conduit needs to still be accessible at each end.
Signal15 has a good idea a while back about doing loops of wire in your soffit too for future expansion. So you can put in cameras, etc.
I really think you shouldn't rule out RG6 though. Not having it for things like potential satellite, cable, antenna or camera connections, etc may limit what you can do in the future. I would at least lay some from your comm closet that is accessible from your roof somehow, and also between your comm closet and your demarc if they aren't in the same room. Or just have a conduit path between those places.
Signal15 has a good idea a while back about doing loops of wire in your soffit too for future expansion. So you can put in cameras, etc.
I really think you shouldn't rule out RG6 though. Not having it for things like potential satellite, cable, antenna or camera connections, etc may limit what you can do in the future. I would at least lay some from your comm closet that is accessible from your roof somehow, and also between your comm closet and your demarc if they aren't in the same room. Or just have a conduit path between those places.
wuench
Senior Member
Yeah, I haven't worked with those before. But it seems logical/serviceable to me to home run at the expense of wire, space, and electricians time if you can afford it, but I am a network guy not an electrician. Even if you still want to run 120v to the switch location.
Installing other wire was always a plan. I just wanted to run CATx too for control.
The conduits get tricky around doors and windows and not having a clue where AV equipment will be placed, or rather the AV end nodes such as speakers, microphones, and TV screens in the future really hampers the process of conduiting the residence. We run all of our conduits between the roof and the basement on all walls every n feet.
The conduits get tricky around doors and windows and not having a clue where AV equipment will be placed, or rather the AV end nodes such as speakers, microphones, and TV screens in the future really hampers the process of conduiting the residence. We run all of our conduits between the roof and the basement on all walls every n feet.
apostolakisl
Senior Member
Conduit is not hard at all to install if you are using floor trusses (which are way the heck better than dimensional lumber as far as pretty much everything like being straight, no bounce, cost, ease of running electrical, conduit, plumbing, hvac, span length, whatever). You just run your conduit up/down the wall through the top/bottom plate and from there it is free running to whereever you want. In commercial construction this is very common and was actually required by the building owner in my office.
The only trick is keeping track of what is going where. But that problem is one we all deal with no matter whether it is conduit or wire.
Pulling wire through conduit after the fact is easy. A piece of fish line tied to a styrofoam peanut or similar that is just a bit smaller than the conduit and a vacuum cleaner on the other end (shop vac works best) and you suck it on through. Once the fish line is in, tie a heavier string or your actual wire and pull it through. I have done this on runs as long as 150 feet with multiple bends.
Also, in my house at least, the floor trusses are 2 feet on center in many places and about 16 inches in height which means you can actually fit in there. It is not for the clausterphobic (nor obese), but I actually slithered into my ceiling once to fix a broken wire on the central vac. My buddy helped pull me back out as going backwards is the tough part. Of course it helps if you can get your subs to be neat about running their stuff becuase it can be a cobweb of crap that becomes non-traversible. Also, if you have a small child with wiring skills, send them in.
The only trick is keeping track of what is going where. But that problem is one we all deal with no matter whether it is conduit or wire.
Pulling wire through conduit after the fact is easy. A piece of fish line tied to a styrofoam peanut or similar that is just a bit smaller than the conduit and a vacuum cleaner on the other end (shop vac works best) and you suck it on through. Once the fish line is in, tie a heavier string or your actual wire and pull it through. I have done this on runs as long as 150 feet with multiple bends.
Also, in my house at least, the floor trusses are 2 feet on center in many places and about 16 inches in height which means you can actually fit in there. It is not for the clausterphobic (nor obese), but I actually slithered into my ceiling once to fix a broken wire on the central vac. My buddy helped pull me back out as going backwards is the tough part. Of course it helps if you can get your subs to be neat about running their stuff becuase it can be a cobweb of crap that becomes non-traversible. Also, if you have a small child with wiring skills, send them in.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
When I design a wiring system, be it for a house or an office, I traditionally identify two key walls where someone might some-day put things; and account for rearrangement of the room (or re-purposing). So, in the master bedroom - people typically have a bed in an obvious place; they have a TV in an obvious place; so you know where to run the basics - but what if they someday need to put a desk/computer in there (you may have an office today, but what if someone else moves in or you have too many kids - or the next family moves in)... In functional areas, like a built-in desk or bar, you may someday want a media-pc or something accessible by the family. In kids rooms, expect that they may someday have a bed, TV, and computer desk. With those considerations in mind, I generally pick two opposing walls and put in my wiring there. For my last house, I did 3 RG6 and 3 Cat6 to each of those locations; it was overkill, but at the time DirecTV DVR's required two tuners plus I had basic cable and a desire to maybe use cameras and channel modulators in the future. (to back my point about new technology following what consumers typically have, DirecTV can now run dual LNB's for multiple tuners AND IP/network all over a single Coax).
Once those locations are identified, you can run smurf tube very inexpensively to the low voltage brackets... have these run someplace accessible - basement or attic. They don't have to home run all the way to your wiring closet, but that could be fun too if you want. Also, when pulling wires, it can be helpful to leave some polyline in the box/conduit along with the wires. It's cheap and makes things easier later.
For AV, you should have a couple key locations identified where you'll run media... maybe a basement, maybe a home theater, wiring closet, or even the family room entertainment center. From there, make sure you can add/change wires easily to/from your wiring closet. Chances are video matrix equipment will either be in your wiring closet or media center... unless you've chosen to pull all equipment in a central place in the house.
As far as lighting, engineering your own system won't be UL approved and quite probably not up to code; but there are plenty of players in the hardwire space. I know I like Lutron from what little I know - but there are better experts around here on lighting systems that can tell you the differences. I have seen them both ways - with everything run to a central load-controlilng bank and low-voltage to the switch locations, and I've seen several that have LV control wires coming off the switch that's otherwise wired like normal.
Good luck whichever way you go - it'd be fun to see you keep a blog or showcase updated.
Once those locations are identified, you can run smurf tube very inexpensively to the low voltage brackets... have these run someplace accessible - basement or attic. They don't have to home run all the way to your wiring closet, but that could be fun too if you want. Also, when pulling wires, it can be helpful to leave some polyline in the box/conduit along with the wires. It's cheap and makes things easier later.
For AV, you should have a couple key locations identified where you'll run media... maybe a basement, maybe a home theater, wiring closet, or even the family room entertainment center. From there, make sure you can add/change wires easily to/from your wiring closet. Chances are video matrix equipment will either be in your wiring closet or media center... unless you've chosen to pull all equipment in a central place in the house.
As far as lighting, engineering your own system won't be UL approved and quite probably not up to code; but there are plenty of players in the hardwire space. I know I like Lutron from what little I know - but there are better experts around here on lighting systems that can tell you the differences. I have seen them both ways - with everything run to a central load-controlilng bank and low-voltage to the switch locations, and I've seen several that have LV control wires coming off the switch that's otherwise wired like normal.
Good luck whichever way you go - it'd be fun to see you keep a blog or showcase updated.
Neurorad
Senior Member
How much time do you have to decide on the cables? That is, until the drywall is installed?
You may want to discuss/consult with a pro LV integrator/installer, particularly if you're not installing the cable/conduit yourself. Missing a needed cable can be VERY costly down the road, for retrofit.
Seems you want a 'clean' install, without visible technology in the living spaces. Can take a lot of planning, before construction.
You'll need a pro to install the home-run line-voltage lighting circuits. Find an electrician who has a lot of experience with this setup, one that is familiar with the system you decide on. Hopefully, you can find an electrician who works closely with a LV pro integrator, one who is familiar with other LV systems, who will allow you to DIY when he's finished - get it in writing up front; you'll need the programming software.
Look on the Lutron website for HomeWorks qualified electricians and integrators, in your area.
With any lighting control system, your main controller will 'talk to' the lighting system controller - not the individual switches/dimmers/keypads - using TCP/IP, serial, or some other standard. The signalling to/from the switches/dimmers is 'proprietary', but the control systems communicate via fairly open protocols. It may be helpful for you to know that Lutron HomeWorks4 and HW8 will be phased out, to be replaced by HW QS.
Lutron HW, Crestron Lighting, and Vantage would be the top-of-the-line for automated lighting. They're usually installed by pros only, but you can sometimes persuade the pro to give you control, if you have them in$tall. Centralite offers a slightly more affordable home-run system (as well as conventionally wired and wireless systems).
I think a lighting system should be decided on before construction.
You may want to discuss/consult with a pro LV integrator/installer, particularly if you're not installing the cable/conduit yourself. Missing a needed cable can be VERY costly down the road, for retrofit.
Seems you want a 'clean' install, without visible technology in the living spaces. Can take a lot of planning, before construction.
You'll need a pro to install the home-run line-voltage lighting circuits. Find an electrician who has a lot of experience with this setup, one that is familiar with the system you decide on. Hopefully, you can find an electrician who works closely with a LV pro integrator, one who is familiar with other LV systems, who will allow you to DIY when he's finished - get it in writing up front; you'll need the programming software.
Look on the Lutron website for HomeWorks qualified electricians and integrators, in your area.
With any lighting control system, your main controller will 'talk to' the lighting system controller - not the individual switches/dimmers/keypads - using TCP/IP, serial, or some other standard. The signalling to/from the switches/dimmers is 'proprietary', but the control systems communicate via fairly open protocols. It may be helpful for you to know that Lutron HomeWorks4 and HW8 will be phased out, to be replaced by HW QS.
Lutron HW, Crestron Lighting, and Vantage would be the top-of-the-line for automated lighting. They're usually installed by pros only, but you can sometimes persuade the pro to give you control, if you have them in$tall. Centralite offers a slightly more affordable home-run system (as well as conventionally wired and wireless systems).
I think a lighting system should be decided on before construction.
