Why are you using a PC for HA ???

[Xymox]

Ripper99,

I do see why you chose the name ripper

What I suggested is that you ADD a cheap crestron to your existing system. Why not ? You can offload some stuff onto it rather then using a PC.

But if your happy - stick with it !

In the system I wanna play with I have 5 lights, 2 appliances and a water heater. Thats all. A 1132CU and Smarthome Manager pro is really all I need. So a $300 ST-CP and a 2414S is WAY more then I need and is a perfect solution. No PC needed in my system.

The stuff your describing is prob WAY cheaper on a PC then a Crestron. NO DOUBT. I said that.

The difference is that a Crestron system, while vastly more expensive, you could walk away from and never touch again - no need to diddle. No Microsoft updates - no rebooting.

I know a lot of Crestron programmers as well, in fact in my line of work I think I can say i might know some of the best in the world, YOU CAN MAKE A CRESTRON SYSTEM THAT DOES NOT NEED -ANY- MAINTENANCE AT ALL. Once running and debugged a crestron system, even on a huge scale, will act the same way forever unless you get a hardware failure or a third party controlled device fails. The only time you run into issues is when you add new things. Then new debugging and you back to stable again.

You sound like the DIY guy I described. You constantally fiddle with the system. Thats fine and so would I.

On a hyper high end HA system - which is what your describing - it can be made more reliable with a $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ crestron based system.
IRRESPECTIVE of cost,,, a crestron -based- system can act as a system co-ordinator and control PC's. You then drop in 64 port RS232 cards and just about anything you need into PC's or directly into multiple crestron frame. However you do all the control you can from the Crestron and ONLY outsource to a PC as absolutely needed because a PC will drop your reliability as a whole.

You don't use Crestron touchpanels, sorry Crestron, you just don't. You use portable tablet PC's and do E-Control. You write Flash based web pages that control the system and then run those from any touchpanel based system that can do flash. This served up directly from a Pro2 based system. I like Flash cuz you can create some pretty sexy control surfaces with it that really interact with the client. You could just do without flash and let Crestron VTPro create the entire Web based control system for you.

Some very serious and expansive systems do use a Unix flavor of blade server hardware to do the web serving. You buy hardware differently tho and Sun makes some nice hardware for web serving. Again its huge bucks.

There are a long list of sexy 1/2" thick tablet based touchscreens that run Windows or Windows CE.

You connect all that via high speed WiFi.

If you got the money, crestron based, tablet ported systems are the only way to go. However you gotta not care about the price. High end tablet based touch screens can be shockingly expensive. If all your doing is web browsing with them they are -OK- reliability. Not as good as a Crestron panel but still not bad.

So on the crazy high end - you drop Pro2's and MC2's into locations close to the equipment you need to control. You then link together Pro2's. You do distributed Crestron. Each system its own little world. You tend to cluster like systems together. You do a Crestron Mesh. Each system talking to other systems.

Where Crestron really comes into its own is in -expensive- systems. It then becomes reliable and seriously powerful.

What I was pointing out with my post originally was in some systems - like most people do - A crestron is a serious contender. Crestron sells A LOT of 1700's + MC2's. Many people have NO idea how to use a computer. Thats right - outside of browsing the web they are computer illiterate. Yet they want a automation system cuz Joe Bob down the block has one and he has no remotes and one button control of his system. THAT is who buys a Crestron system and uses a Crestron dealer. NOT a HA guy - Joe Q Public buys Crestron. The person who has NO idea what most of the buttons on a remote for a TV do. They want a HA system to make the gear all work and have the ability to throw away all the remotes.

They have maybe 12 pieces of IR controlled equipment in 3 rooms, a centralized lighting system thats RS232 and a few things like window shades that are low voltage relay controlled. They want a cool looking touchpanel.

Guess what, thats a 1700 + a MC2. Yea its $3K + programming.

What they gain is computer independence - and these people don't like computers. They have never updated their computers and have viruses. They have no idea how to fix the problem. They look at a computer as horridly complex thing they will never understand.

What they gain is -simplicity-. They also gain functionality - as a crestron can enable them to use things they could never figure out with remotes. The system just works and they never have to think about.

Basic Crestron systems appeal to a different kind of automation guy. A guy who wants simple.

Thats is also the VAST market share too. Thats where the business model is. NOT a DIY guy like we are.

_______________________

No I have not used any of the computer based HA solutions. I do 2 things, my own megar system and I get exposed to the highest end of HA.

So I have no experience in the middle ground other then what I described above with the mainstream Joe who wants simple. In a previous life I did a lot of the simple middle ground systems and know first hand that they work perfectly for very long periods.

_________________________

I still stick to my guns and say i can design a more stable and even more functional HA system with a Crestron based solution - AS LONG AS PRICE IS NO OBJECT -.

I also stick to my guys that for many people, not the die hard HA DIY guy, that a Crestron is a better solution that is close in price to a computer based solution and has the advantage of being PC free. IE a typical 12 device, 2 RS232 port and a few relays with 1 or 2 touch panels. In fact this is a well understood market segment and is established that it works. Crestron thrives in this market. This is also the vast share of HA.

If you can get a PC to do the above - with a wireless battery operated touchpanel and a PC so independent and stable it never needs to be touched ever for under $3000 list then you need to bring it to market and displace Crestron as the market leader. Many have tried. All have failed to displace Crestron in the $3000 category. That is the reality.

For us, the DIY guy, a computer can be fun and can be a challenging puzzle. You can do all sorts of stuff on a VERY affordable level. As I said a couple of time here now - Crestron is expensive and a good reason not to do it --IF-- your gonna do all sorts of crazy fun stuff.

I personally however do not ever see needing anything that requires a PC. So I will not be doing a PC based solution..

Well Ripper - your fun to debate. However I think you have bias against Crestron. You are CORRECT that for what you described - a PC is the best solution for you.



Whew... This is why I don't like forums. You gotta debate and hold your ground. Its very time consuming. Years back I vowed to never read AVSForum for this very reason. I forgot. Guess I was dumb to start this crazy thread.

My fingers hurt again...

 

[smee]

I think the thread is fine, and useful. You've provided quite a bit of information. It's always possible for threads to become debates - even when that wasn't originally intended. All everyone needs to remember is that there are many solutions to the same problems (or non-problems - I think we go out of our ways to find problems we need to fix sometimes ).

Making blanket statements like "PCs aren't reliable" flies in the face of those of us with PCs that are running fine and haven't been rebooted for months or years. My HA machine has only been rebooted for updates/changes in the last few years, never because it was unstable. While most people will acknowledge that a hardware controller can be more stable, not everyone will consider that the occasional reboot is that big of a hardship.

Again, all we need to remember is that there are many possible solutions. It's tough sometimes to be enthusiastic about a solution and not sound like you are being critical of the other solutions.

 

[toymaster458]

Xymox

If Crestron was more open to the DIY users I think your debate would go a totaly different direction. In General a good hardware based controller will beat out a computer in reliability but in the end for the DIY'er it comes down to Support from the Company (For example Elk verse HAI), availible information and ability for end users to learn.

You said yourself that if the Crestron is properly programmed and debugged it will run for ever. Now how many programmers does Crestron have that hold to that standard and will not charge the end user an arm and leg to program? Since you do not like using the Crestron Touch Panels and design Flash based screens that is another thing that would have to be learned as well.

For you the Crestron is the answer because you have the knowledge and resources to pull it off where as an average DIY'er does not. That is why a PC Based system is better. The Average DIY'er works with computers on a daily bases and Both CQC and MainLobby provide an interface that makes that learning curve so much lower then a Crestron Based System.

Now if you and a bunch of Crestron guy want to start up a web site and start providing all these needed resources, tools and get some good programmers to answer questions in a forum and help teach DIY'ers the ways then we may have another solution to look into. But I am sure if this was done Crestron would do everything it could to shut it down.

 

[Xymox]

Ripper I decided to answer all your questions...

With the cheap equipment you speak of on ebay can you add color touchscreens easily if they are not Crestron?

Not unless they are RS232. But if your buying color touchscreens you have the money to buy a expensive Crestron with Ethernet and you do E-Control and then you buy WiFi enabled tablet PC's or use your existing touchpanel PC's.

Can you control your system with UMPC's?

Sorry I don't know what a UMPC is

Can you easily add various new lighting technology such as UPB, Insteon, Zwave, Zigbee without buying more Crestron gear at a high price..for me to add any of these would be in the hundreds..how much for you to do the same with the cheap hardware you mention from Ebay?

You would need a $500 ( on ebay ) MC2E as the base and if you can somehow control these things via IR then you don't need anything but the $250 ST-CP. The Insteon I know is RS232 via 2414. 2 way is more complex with some of these devices. If they have RS232 - you just plug them in. However you might need a AV2 or even a AV with 8 RS232 ports. Again on ebay these are like $500 or less.

**I believe you mentioned you can control Insteon..what about the others?

Im sure there is a fairly cheap way via crestron. RS232 or IR is usually the way to do it.

Can you control a multi terabyte CD/DVD archive?

Is it IR or RS232 ? then yes. I have personal experience with raid servers for broadcast use that I use to serve up 1000's of DVDs and music content. Thats RS422. And YES I can control it via the $250 ST-CP. But that server starts at $200,000 so a controller does not need to be cheap.

Can you do whole house audio cheaply or control a Russound CAV6.6 and have two-way?

Yes I can control it 2 way, displaying it 2 way is harder at the $250 dollar level. But at the MC2E level you add a 2-way touch panel or a web based tablet PC and yes I can control it fully 2 way.

Whole house audio, sure whatever hardware you use now to make sound can be controlled via IR or RS232.

Anyone in the custom install buisness, like russsound, makes thier gear Crestron compatible. Its a manditory requirement in the HA buisness to be Crestron friendly.

Can you do irrigation?

Of course, I would use a irrigation system that has RS232 control and offload the actual sprinkling to it and only oversee that from the Crestron.

Lots of people make RS232 controled relays if you wanna directly control the sprinklers via Crestron.

Can you control other 2-way components and get two-way feedback? If you can't what good is it if you have all your gear in another room and cannot tell if your gear is on or off...how can you tell which satellite radio station or am/fm station you are on without two-way?

First off few things really need visual 2-way control. You press a station preset on a one way panel and it changes to the station you want. Your gear is on or off cuz you pressed a button to check it and turn it on or off for example. But yes a MC2E plus a tablet or web based control system is fully 2-way.

Can you control whole house lighting and dim certain areas and see what level your lights are at?

Again - you can just press a button and have the lights go to a known preset. But if you want 2-way you do a MC2E and do E-Control and get 2-way web based control.

Can you control your thermostats and see what temperature the house is at in any room cheaply?

As cheaply as you can.

Basically what I am getting at is many people here do simple automation and others want full on systems that can do the above things and more and I find it hard to believe cheap used Crestron gear could do all of the above for as cheap as I can do it.

You would need a AV2 control system with the ethernet card now with maybe a linked AV2 because of your number of RS232 devices. This gives you 12 RS232 ports. You need E-Control which would require a license from crestron so you need a dealer who will hook you up - which I recommend in your case, but a dealer you can just buy stuff from - you do the programming. You add your own PC based web browsing touchpanels. They just need to have internet access and be WiFi. You will need a router with WiFi..Anything that can browse a web page can control your system.

YES everything you described can be done with a Crestron system for under $3000 LIST. But you gotta add your own touchpanels - you prob allready have those. Worse case OK maybe $5000. How much do you have wrapped up in PC hardware now at list prices ?

You are now PC free in the controller for under $3000. thats pretty cheap actually. Maybe you might wanna spend more as you go and add more fun stuff too. You can link more AV or AV2's for more RS232 and these are cheap on ebay.

I think Crestron is in the running here.

my components are rs-232 controlled using the exact same commands and serial cables that would be used by a crestron system.

Good, so you can just plug in the system.

Its not like any of us are planning to launch the shuttle..

Yea welll for about the same price you gain reliablity and drop the PC out the window - many of us do not like PC's. I would rather use Crestron.

Crestron is hardware based but is not without fault, I know Crestron programmers and they wouldn't have a job if the system ran flawless..the truth is regardless if its strictly hardware it doesnt mean it won't ever break or need to be rebooted..even the newest Crestron stuff is serviced on a monthly basis by dealers..while some system won't be serviced as often none of them are installed and run till they die and never crash.

Not true. Most dealers never go back to a Crestron system -UNLESS- the client wants something new added. I have direct experience here. Crestron systems run for YEARS without being touched. ASSUMING NO POWER ISSUES. I run crestron on UPS and that cleans up the power and makes them far more reliable.

SURE Crestron has hardware issues - VERY few compared to a PC however.

Your Crestron buddies will tell you its not the Crestron hardware - its the other devices that cause issues. That or they do not know what they are doing and not using a UPS or writing poor code.

even the newest Crestron stuff is serviced on a monthly basis by dealers.

This is BS. Support your claim. I can see a shady Crestron dealer telling clients that so they can get money - but its simply not true.

Dealers like this are also too frequent these days.

while some system won't be serviced as often none of them are installed and run till they die and never crash.

Hmmm.... with clean power... I have seen some where ground loops cause weirdness over years - but I have seen systems myself run for 4 years without being rebooted or touched. However I DO AGREE WITH YOU THAT HARDWARE -SHOULD- BE REBOOTED. I used to power a mechanical timer switch on the power for a crestron and reboot it nightly at 3am just to be on the safe side.

Don't get me wrong cheap Crestron stuff on ebay is no doubt reliable but what really can you do with it..can you actually do everything I mentioned above and use third party products without a problem?

Yes you can. For under $3000.

Most of my system is connected to Russound gear like the CAV6.6, an ST2-XM satellite tuner and a Neothings switcher and Krell audio which has rs-232...can that Crestron gear you mention for cheap on Ebay interface easily and control all this gear for me and allow me to use any Color touchscreen that is serial/usb that I want and have two-way feedback?

Yes as long as your touchscreens are able to browse the web.

If a person is not a Crestron dealer or doesnt personally know one how can they obtain drivers they need to control equipment?

The Crestron database is crazy extensive for IR. If its not in there you go to the Yahoo Forum and ask for it. Odds are someone in the Crestron world has already done it.

Thsi is true for RS232 as well..

Its a open system so you can make your own. You can buy a IR learner and make your own IR controller devices for $300. You can write your own RS232 drivers.

remember you don't have to do USB or any of that junk anymore. Your PC free.

If your device is RS232, you send it a string to do a command.

If you create a cool new RS232 module for Crestron you can post it for others on the Yahoo group.

How can you have a driver written if you can't do it yourself? At least with my system at the very worst case scenario I can pay to have a two-way driver developed..with crestron gear I might never get one if I don't have contacts.

Its a open system - you write them yourself. No need to pay anyone.

You just buy a learner and if you can type you can do serial commands and make your own RS232 drivers.

I also have 7 serial devices and anticipate controlling another 4-5....can your controller handle all this? For me to control another 8 rs-232 ports would cost less than $100

for $3000 total for the entire control system which is a MC2E and a AV/AV2, you get 12 ports.

Realistically what good is a system if it's all one way...kinda like a car without a speedometer.

Its fully 2-way and web based. Its wifi enabled. You can use any thing that can browse the web and has WiFi.

Don't take my post the wrong way I'm just having a hard time believing that the Crestron components you mention can do all the stuff I need done and be easy to maintain at the same time..with my system now if their is a problem I can get answers within hours..if that.

If you buddy up with a Crestron dealer you can get answers 24/7 even on holidays in under a hour. If you go without a dealer you go post on the forum.

frankly I don't think you would have the kind of problems you would have with a PCbased solution. It would just work or your code is wrong. Mostly you need questions answered by the people who make the devices your trying to control - not the crestron people.

I would take the classes, they are fun - you learn stuff AND THEN you can get 24/7 TrueBlue support....


_____________________________


Any other questions ???

hehehe... That was fun....

 

[Xymox]

Toymaster and smee...

I agree with everything you said. All excellent points.

I think both solutions have valid aspects they are just different.

I -really- agree about the complexity and difficultly of dealing the Crestron. It is -NOT- a happy DIY solution and Crestron DOES NOT WANT DIY guys.

Im just pointing out that it is a valid solution if your into DIY. Its a extreme DIY kinda thing.

Bythe way, Tweeter sells Crestron hardware to anyone. Just walk in and buy it.

I have -zero- interest in starting up a Crestron DIY site. Not becasue I don;t want to - its just way to much work.


I was trying to bring -FUN- to a bunch of DIY guys. Crestron is -FUN- and can be had -cheap-. Thats is all I was trying to do....

It is complex, it is hard, it is extreme. Isn't that the fun part tho ?

GOD my fingers hurt.

Im gonna go solder some Triacs into a Smarthome Insteon dimmers. Try and forget this control platform debate. EeEe gads......

 

[Dean Roddey]

frankly I don't think you would have the kind of problems you would have with a PCbased solution. It would just work or your code is wrong. Mostly you need questions answered by the people who make the devices your trying to control - not the crestron people.

And therein lies the entire problem with your argument. You just assume that we are all having horrible problems with PC based automation, when we just are not. You are trying to sell something based on an advantage that doesn't really exist.

My PC based system just works as well, and it doesn't cost much and it can do things that a Crestron system costing many times more would be required to do.

 

[Xymox]

well OK i admit I enjoy the debate.... hehehe....

bring it on !

( Oh gawd did I say that )

 

[Guy Lavoie]

If Crestron was more open to the DIY users I think your debate would go a totaly different direction. In General a good hardware based controller will beat out a computer in reliability but in the end for the DIY'er it comes down to Support from the Company (For example Elk verse HAI), availible information and ability for end users to learn.

Bang...you beat me to it. Being open to the DIY people is what makes it or breaks it for the vast majority of Cocoontech memebers. The example of HAI vs Elk is also the example I had in mind. It would be nice if Crestron made it possible for DIY'ers to exist "legally", elbeit with no direct support but where a forum like this one would still be accessible. I think that the main reason for the reluctance of a company like Crestron to acknowledge DIY'ers is that it is sold by professionnal installers who don't want the public to "know" how much margin they are making, and to protect the installer's exclusive ability to program the system and charge very high hourly fees.

I hope that a company like Elk will end up succesfully demonstrating that pro installers and DIY'ers can co-exist with the same product, and become a model that other companies can learn from.

I for one, am a big believer of the hardware controller. My Ocelot based system has been running for years without a crash. The PC is so attractive because the computing power vs price is simply unbeatable, but the very openness of the PC is the main reson for its relative lack of stability.

 

[Guy Lavoie]

And therein lies the entire problem with your argument. You just assume that we are all having horrible problems with PC based automation, when we just are not. You are trying to sell something based on an advantage that doesn't really exist.

The biggest single differentiator between PC based systems and hardware controllers is the reliability factor.

How many times have you seen PC based alarm or HVAC systems?

 

[Dean Roddey]

There would be no price/feature advantage to doing so, so I wouldn't expect to see such a product. It doesn't require the power of a PC. When this debate comes up, it always seems to get lost that a 'PC' means a particular type of product, not how it's used or packaged. A PC that the kids surf porn on is obviously not going to remain stable. A PC in the closet, completey untouched, locked down, and running a fixed set of functionality will remain stable. Many bank ATMs are just PCs running a fixed set of software and locked down. They run for long periods of time in a very abusive, exposed environment.

But of course it only makes sense to use one if you need the features it enables.

 

[Xymox]

ALL I'm saying is using a Crestron box -might- be fun and useful. You can ADD it to your computer based system and off load some stuff onto it. -IF- your extreme enough to try it and crazy enough to deal with it that is. I'm both crazy and extreme

Indeed you never see computer based security systems, even big huge ones, because of stability. They have computer interfaces to arm/disarm but the relays and controls are all hardware based. All the military/satellite stuff is hardware based - preferably without a micro controller - just transistors. No CPU at all. When its really got to happen it becomes mechanical in fact.

Its mathematically/scientifically possible to argue that more parts = more issues and more code = more issues. Period. Anyone in any form of engineering knows this is true.

You guys are getting me wrong. I'm not saying a PC can't be stable and work for a long time. It can. Ive done servers that would go without a human touching them for 6 months. Auto updates with reboots. Actually even longer I think - hard to remember. But it IS possible to make a computer go for very long periods of time.

AS long as you do not mind rebooting. At least once a month for updates.

I would schedule a reboot into the system nightly to be safe. Figure that into your HA code too. Then your system will prob run for years.

HOWEVER - A crestron is -still more reliable-. However small a difference that may be becomes a computer hardware design issue and of course how well you setup and choose a OS. THATS all I'm saying. A hardware solution like Crestron is what you try and achieve with a computer in reliability. Its prob not possible to equal however as there are more parts and more code. This is just a scientific/mathematical fact.

There is no need to reboot or update once a month for example. Once a month reboots alone take 20 to 30 seconds to complete. This knocks you down to less then 100% uptime right away. Sure its now like 99.99% but its not 100%.

THATS all I'm saying.... Its a minor difference BUT its a difference.

If you know when someone reboots their security system for updates once a month - 30 seconds is enough time to break in and disable the security. So 99.99% is not enough only 100% is enough. For example.

You know,,,, I remember a technical tour I got of a rollercoaster ride in Vegas called "Speed". It uses magnetic propulsion - huge 3 phase electromagnets - that propel the car to crazy speeds instantly. 660V 3 phase at 600A. Insane power. VERY dangerous. This is the kind of system you can't have fail.

It used -relays-. No cpu. No transistors. The relays were mercury relays and the whole system used electromechanical switches on the track to sense where the car was and electromechanical interlocks and safety systems. There was a second booster set of magnets about 1/2 way along that made you go even faster. This operated by a magnetic switch with a reed relay to sense when the car was in the right spot to shoot it off. This relay made contact with another mercury wetted relay which then triggered a bank of 600A 3phase mercury relays that energized the coils of the magnets to propel the car. The duration was control by another time delay relay which used a form of electromechanical means to time it.

The whole thing was one big set of relays you could ohm out. There was very little that could go wrong. Most high safety systems use this kind of engineering.

It was made this way for reliability and safety. They could have used ANYTHING but they went to electromechanical control for simplicity, reliability and safety.

While doing HA we don't worry about killing people and causing massive explosions caused by shorting 660V 600A 3 phase systems, we can borrow from this engineering design philosophy when it works in our favor.

Off load critical system to a crestron rather then use a PC for example. Keep the PC and connect it to the Crestron. That way when you reboot those system do not go down.

_____________________________________


Now as to support and being "legal" well, as I said from my first post, good luck.

Crestron does not like DIY. This will never change. A DIY market is just too small and non-profitable for them to care about it. You are right this is a HUGE issue for most people. However as a hobbyist you can play with it and see if it works for you.

Ebay is good for this. You decide you don't like, resell it on ebay !

My original posting for this thread was to make you guys aware that a fun toy exists that you might have missed. Sure its hard, sure its extreme and mostly unsupported, Yup you heading into uncharted territory,,,,,, but hey - that sounds fun to me...

Its Crestron - it must work. You guys are smart - you can figure it out.

However its a 10 on a 10 for DIY....

There is another aspect I was thinking about today.

Its time consuming.

It really is very base level. You gotta string together OR's and "NAND"s. You gotta make your own logic. You gotta debug it. Its like writing code. In fact you can write it all in C if your really crazy. It is more time consuming then doing a PC based solution I would imagine.

So besides things like support issues, complexity and learning curve you also got development time.

The good side is you get a fast, multitasking, very reliable, extremely flexible, hardware based system.

____________________________


I think we have mostly put this issue to rest.

Besides I want to spend my time doing a How-To in doing a bunch of hardware mods to the Samrthome Insteon products. Because what good is reliability in a controller if your device hardware is a mess ?? Keeping Insteon V2 hardware working at 100% uptime is a far bigger challenge. Actually just having it work correctly at all is a challenge.

Thats what I like doing. Hardware electronic design. I am giving Smarthome some things to think about in future revisions

 

[upstatemike]

While doing HA we don't worry about killing people and causing massive explosions...

Speak for yourself. This is always a concern in my system. The Tesla coil driveway lights are especially tricky!

 

[roussell]

How many times have you seen PC based alarm or HVAC systems?

Actually, our building’s security, access control, elevators, and HVAC systems are controlled by "PCs". I try to buddy-up with the maintenance guy when ever I see him around so I can sneak a peek at the control systems. None of them LOOK like PCs, but if you take off the covers, you see a familiar Intel Pentium processor, flash memory card and so forth on a custom motherboard with a custom power supply. The maintenance guy says they run “qnix or unix or sompthin’ like that†. Other than my office always being too cold, they all seem to work well, never been locked out. Interestingly enough, the elevators controls are powered by an NT4 (yes NT4) box. I have been locked in the elevators before over a weekend, and had to call 911 so the Fire department could “rescue†me.

Also, if you ever look inside the case of a Cisco PIX 525 firewall, you’ll find a PC, as you will if look at the Navigation/Weather system on our companies Twin Otter and Gulfstream planes. The later is kind of funny to be sitting up front in the plane while the pilots are bringing everything up - Seeing a Windows 2000 boot screen flash by on the planes instrumentation is a bit un-nerving.

PC technology is in more places that one would think these days. More reliable hardware and software has blurred the lines between traditional hardware-only control systems and ones based on PCs. Take a look at your TiVo if you have one. When was the last time you had a problem with that? I have a Series 1 that has been running continuously for YEARS (bought used in '03) and has only been off when I moved or when the power was down longer than the UPS could hold it.

IMO, the reliability controversy over hardware vs software is about as silly as Ford vs Chevy, Segate vs Maxtor, or this vs that (but not Windows vs Linux, that's serious ) The real consideration these days should be what is the best tool for the job. Sometimes it's hardware-only, sometimes PC-based, other times both will be required. You wouldn't open a paint can with a salami, nor would you use a $15 screwdriver if you already have one of those freebie lid-opener thingies.

Terry

 

[Xymox]

WHOA....

Yea buddy.... Tesla coil driveway lights !!!!

Man im coming over. I assume they trigger on sensing a car.

Wow that will scare away any burgler too, security system as well then !

Man...... BzzzzzzzAP....

I have always wanted to make one. Thats a cool DIY project if ever I saw one. They have gone really high tech too, using a wet dry vac to suck out the arc is pretty cool.

You could scare the **** outta people with one of those....

Police would come for sure.


Yea THAT IS my kind of DIY project.

 

[Xymox]

But you see,,,, the system you mention are purpose built. The CPU's being Intel is just a cheap choice of CPU's. Running Unix maybe. However every aspect of the entire system has been FULLY tested and does not change with time and never needs updates. Its a "closed system". These systems if tested seriously -approach- but DO NOT surpass a hardware based system. As I said a number of times - this is scientific fact.

The planes nav running W2K makes sense too. This makes you nervous. Why ? for the reasons i state.

However W2K isn't in charge of the rudder servo. A hardware based system is. Sure it can be controlled by a W2K box - only if the pilot says its OK. So a human is in charge of things. Now on the rudder control - the pilot cannot override a mistake there - so its extreme hardware control.

When you dedicate a OS like Windows to a hardware platform you control all aspects of software, drivers and hardware. This is FAR more controllable and reliable then any open consumer Windows box. You also do not have to patch the plane nav system every month to protect from hackers. You also reboot every time you fly.

Closed systems like you mention are quire different in design then a Windows PC. In fact that is a whole engineering concept unto itself.

Fly by wire is a great example of hardware based engineering. The W2K box does not directly control critical systems for a reason.