Xymox
Member
Ripper99,
I do see why you chose the name ripper
What I suggested is that you ADD a cheap crestron to your existing system. Why not ? You can offload some stuff onto it rather then using a PC.
But if your happy - stick with it !
In the system I wanna play with I have 5 lights, 2 appliances and a water heater. Thats all. A 1132CU and Smarthome Manager pro is really all I need. So a $300 ST-CP and a 2414S is WAY more then I need and is a perfect solution. No PC needed in my system.
The stuff your describing is prob WAY cheaper on a PC then a Crestron. NO DOUBT. I said that.
The difference is that a Crestron system, while vastly more expensive, you could walk away from and never touch again - no need to diddle. No Microsoft updates - no rebooting.
I know a lot of Crestron programmers as well, in fact in my line of work I think I can say i might know some of the best in the world, YOU CAN MAKE A CRESTRON SYSTEM THAT DOES NOT NEED -ANY- MAINTENANCE AT ALL. Once running and debugged a crestron system, even on a huge scale, will act the same way forever unless you get a hardware failure or a third party controlled device fails. The only time you run into issues is when you add new things. Then new debugging and you back to stable again.
You sound like the DIY guy I described. You constantally fiddle with the system. Thats fine and so would I.
On a hyper high end HA system - which is what your describing - it can be made more reliable with a $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ crestron based system.
IRRESPECTIVE of cost,,, a crestron -based- system can act as a system co-ordinator and control PC's. You then drop in 64 port RS232 cards and just about anything you need into PC's or directly into multiple crestron frame. However you do all the control you can from the Crestron and ONLY outsource to a PC as absolutely needed because a PC will drop your reliability as a whole.
You don't use Crestron touchpanels, sorry Crestron, you just don't. You use portable tablet PC's and do E-Control. You write Flash based web pages that control the system and then run those from any touchpanel based system that can do flash. This served up directly from a Pro2 based system. I like Flash cuz you can create some pretty sexy control surfaces with it that really interact with the client. You could just do without flash and let Crestron VTPro create the entire Web based control system for you.
Some very serious and expansive systems do use a Unix flavor of blade server hardware to do the web serving. You buy hardware differently tho and Sun makes some nice hardware for web serving. Again its huge bucks.
There are a long list of sexy 1/2" thick tablet based touchscreens that run Windows or Windows CE.
You connect all that via high speed WiFi.
If you got the money, crestron based, tablet ported systems are the only way to go. However you gotta not care about the price. High end tablet based touch screens can be shockingly expensive. If all your doing is web browsing with them they are -OK- reliability. Not as good as a Crestron panel but still not bad.
So on the crazy high end - you drop Pro2's and MC2's into locations close to the equipment you need to control. You then link together Pro2's. You do distributed Crestron. Each system its own little world. You tend to cluster like systems together. You do a Crestron Mesh. Each system talking to other systems.
Where Crestron really comes into its own is in -expensive- systems. It then becomes reliable and seriously powerful.
What I was pointing out with my post originally was in some systems - like most people do - A crestron is a serious contender. Crestron sells A LOT of 1700's + MC2's. Many people have NO idea how to use a computer. Thats right - outside of browsing the web they are computer illiterate. Yet they want a automation system cuz Joe Bob down the block has one and he has no remotes and one button control of his system. THAT is who buys a Crestron system and uses a Crestron dealer. NOT a HA guy - Joe Q Public buys Crestron. The person who has NO idea what most of the buttons on a remote for a TV do. They want a HA system to make the gear all work and have the ability to throw away all the remotes.
They have maybe 12 pieces of IR controlled equipment in 3 rooms, a centralized lighting system thats RS232 and a few things like window shades that are low voltage relay controlled. They want a cool looking touchpanel.
Guess what, thats a 1700 + a MC2. Yea its $3K + programming.
What they gain is computer independence - and these people don't like computers. They have never updated their computers and have viruses. They have no idea how to fix the problem. They look at a computer as horridly complex thing they will never understand.
What they gain is -simplicity-. They also gain functionality - as a crestron can enable them to use things they could never figure out with remotes. The system just works and they never have to think about.
Basic Crestron systems appeal to a different kind of automation guy. A guy who wants simple.
Thats is also the VAST market share too. Thats where the business model is. NOT a DIY guy like we are.
_______________________
No I have not used any of the computer based HA solutions. I do 2 things, my own megar system and I get exposed to the highest end of HA.
So I have no experience in the middle ground other then what I described above with the mainstream Joe who wants simple. In a previous life I did a lot of the simple middle ground systems and know first hand that they work perfectly for very long periods.
_________________________
I still stick to my guns and say i can design a more stable and even more functional HA system with a Crestron based solution - AS LONG AS PRICE IS NO OBJECT -.
I also stick to my guys that for many people, not the die hard HA DIY guy, that a Crestron is a better solution that is close in price to a computer based solution and has the advantage of being PC free. IE a typical 12 device, 2 RS232 port and a few relays with 1 or 2 touch panels. In fact this is a well understood market segment and is established that it works. Crestron thrives in this market. This is also the vast share of HA.
If you can get a PC to do the above - with a wireless battery operated touchpanel and a PC so independent and stable it never needs to be touched ever for under $3000 list then you need to bring it to market and displace Crestron as the market leader. Many have tried. All have failed to displace Crestron in the $3000 category. That is the reality.
For us, the DIY guy, a computer can be fun and can be a challenging puzzle. You can do all sorts of stuff on a VERY affordable level. As I said a couple of time here now - Crestron is expensive and a good reason not to do it --IF-- your gonna do all sorts of crazy fun stuff.
I personally however do not ever see needing anything that requires a PC. So I will not be doing a PC based solution..
Well Ripper - your fun to debate. However I think you have bias against Crestron. You are CORRECT that for what you described - a PC is the best solution for you.
Whew... This is why I don't like forums. You gotta debate and hold your ground. Its very time consuming. Years back I vowed to never read AVSForum for this very reason. I forgot. Guess I was dumb to start this crazy thread.
My fingers hurt again...
I do see why you chose the name ripper
What I suggested is that you ADD a cheap crestron to your existing system. Why not ? You can offload some stuff onto it rather then using a PC.
But if your happy - stick with it !
In the system I wanna play with I have 5 lights, 2 appliances and a water heater. Thats all. A 1132CU and Smarthome Manager pro is really all I need. So a $300 ST-CP and a 2414S is WAY more then I need and is a perfect solution. No PC needed in my system.
The stuff your describing is prob WAY cheaper on a PC then a Crestron. NO DOUBT. I said that.
The difference is that a Crestron system, while vastly more expensive, you could walk away from and never touch again - no need to diddle. No Microsoft updates - no rebooting.
I know a lot of Crestron programmers as well, in fact in my line of work I think I can say i might know some of the best in the world, YOU CAN MAKE A CRESTRON SYSTEM THAT DOES NOT NEED -ANY- MAINTENANCE AT ALL. Once running and debugged a crestron system, even on a huge scale, will act the same way forever unless you get a hardware failure or a third party controlled device fails. The only time you run into issues is when you add new things. Then new debugging and you back to stable again.
You sound like the DIY guy I described. You constantally fiddle with the system. Thats fine and so would I.
On a hyper high end HA system - which is what your describing - it can be made more reliable with a $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ crestron based system.
IRRESPECTIVE of cost,,, a crestron -based- system can act as a system co-ordinator and control PC's. You then drop in 64 port RS232 cards and just about anything you need into PC's or directly into multiple crestron frame. However you do all the control you can from the Crestron and ONLY outsource to a PC as absolutely needed because a PC will drop your reliability as a whole.
You don't use Crestron touchpanels, sorry Crestron, you just don't. You use portable tablet PC's and do E-Control. You write Flash based web pages that control the system and then run those from any touchpanel based system that can do flash. This served up directly from a Pro2 based system. I like Flash cuz you can create some pretty sexy control surfaces with it that really interact with the client. You could just do without flash and let Crestron VTPro create the entire Web based control system for you.
Some very serious and expansive systems do use a Unix flavor of blade server hardware to do the web serving. You buy hardware differently tho and Sun makes some nice hardware for web serving. Again its huge bucks.
There are a long list of sexy 1/2" thick tablet based touchscreens that run Windows or Windows CE.
You connect all that via high speed WiFi.
If you got the money, crestron based, tablet ported systems are the only way to go. However you gotta not care about the price. High end tablet based touch screens can be shockingly expensive. If all your doing is web browsing with them they are -OK- reliability. Not as good as a Crestron panel but still not bad.
So on the crazy high end - you drop Pro2's and MC2's into locations close to the equipment you need to control. You then link together Pro2's. You do distributed Crestron. Each system its own little world. You tend to cluster like systems together. You do a Crestron Mesh. Each system talking to other systems.
Where Crestron really comes into its own is in -expensive- systems. It then becomes reliable and seriously powerful.
What I was pointing out with my post originally was in some systems - like most people do - A crestron is a serious contender. Crestron sells A LOT of 1700's + MC2's. Many people have NO idea how to use a computer. Thats right - outside of browsing the web they are computer illiterate. Yet they want a automation system cuz Joe Bob down the block has one and he has no remotes and one button control of his system. THAT is who buys a Crestron system and uses a Crestron dealer. NOT a HA guy - Joe Q Public buys Crestron. The person who has NO idea what most of the buttons on a remote for a TV do. They want a HA system to make the gear all work and have the ability to throw away all the remotes.
They have maybe 12 pieces of IR controlled equipment in 3 rooms, a centralized lighting system thats RS232 and a few things like window shades that are low voltage relay controlled. They want a cool looking touchpanel.
Guess what, thats a 1700 + a MC2. Yea its $3K + programming.
What they gain is computer independence - and these people don't like computers. They have never updated their computers and have viruses. They have no idea how to fix the problem. They look at a computer as horridly complex thing they will never understand.
What they gain is -simplicity-. They also gain functionality - as a crestron can enable them to use things they could never figure out with remotes. The system just works and they never have to think about.
Basic Crestron systems appeal to a different kind of automation guy. A guy who wants simple.
Thats is also the VAST market share too. Thats where the business model is. NOT a DIY guy like we are.
_______________________
No I have not used any of the computer based HA solutions. I do 2 things, my own megar system and I get exposed to the highest end of HA.
So I have no experience in the middle ground other then what I described above with the mainstream Joe who wants simple. In a previous life I did a lot of the simple middle ground systems and know first hand that they work perfectly for very long periods.
_________________________
I still stick to my guns and say i can design a more stable and even more functional HA system with a Crestron based solution - AS LONG AS PRICE IS NO OBJECT -.
I also stick to my guys that for many people, not the die hard HA DIY guy, that a Crestron is a better solution that is close in price to a computer based solution and has the advantage of being PC free. IE a typical 12 device, 2 RS232 port and a few relays with 1 or 2 touch panels. In fact this is a well understood market segment and is established that it works. Crestron thrives in this market. This is also the vast share of HA.
If you can get a PC to do the above - with a wireless battery operated touchpanel and a PC so independent and stable it never needs to be touched ever for under $3000 list then you need to bring it to market and displace Crestron as the market leader. Many have tried. All have failed to displace Crestron in the $3000 category. That is the reality.
For us, the DIY guy, a computer can be fun and can be a challenging puzzle. You can do all sorts of stuff on a VERY affordable level. As I said a couple of time here now - Crestron is expensive and a good reason not to do it --IF-- your gonna do all sorts of crazy fun stuff.
I personally however do not ever see needing anything that requires a PC. So I will not be doing a PC based solution..
Well Ripper - your fun to debate. However I think you have bias against Crestron. You are CORRECT that for what you described - a PC is the best solution for you.
Whew... This is why I don't like forums. You gotta debate and hold your ground. Its very time consuming. Years back I vowed to never read AVSForum for this very reason. I forgot. Guess I was dumb to start this crazy thread.
My fingers hurt again...