Why are you using a PC for HA ???

AS long as you do not mind rebooting. At least once a month for updates.

um.....why are people updating monthly??? These are PCs that run HA and dont need constant updates. I suspect if you updated your crestron device with patches monthly it would crash too.


The debate about reliability is an oranges to apples one here.

I can build a PC and let it run for years 100% reliable (DONT TOUCH IT!!), you can not be more reliable then that and an engineer will tell you that 100% is 100% :(


Another thing here is you talk about Crestron systems being built and left running for years. Well, that is only because the home owner doesnt care to add new stuff, doesnt care for change. Just likes the same things over and over and of course they work because it has never been touched, besides those owners dont read these forums. plus this is CI vs DIY apples to oranges debate again, years of experience and training (most times) vs a couple weekends of fun so reliable is not a core hardware/software question is the person who is changing it question.

I can make a PC as reliable as anything you can make period. Not better, just as good because that is what I do. I go into mid size companies and convince them to drop the 250K unix servers for 10K PCs (10x the performance and just as reliable). :) I'm also in the PLC world (on the project management side) and after 15 years in the field, its a simple fact Hardware fails period because of the people involved.

btw, I love your detailed posts about Crestron very well done, you really believe in your product as proof in the length you went to giving detals about it.
 
Valid points Xymox, but then you have to ask what is the actual argument here? Is it "true hardware" only (I'm talking about ttl or cmos logic chips or even discrete components only), versus a mix (which is what Crestron and the one I mentioned are) or software/firmware/hardware. In simplest terms, if I want to make an LED blink; I can used a resistor and capacitor, or I can use a 555 timer and a transistor or two, or I can use a PIC and some assembly, a BASIC stamp and supporting circuitry, a purely mechanical timer, use an ebay-crestron, or tie the LED to an I/O port on a PC and write some code in my favorite language to make it blink. I could even tie it to a diode and current transformer and put it near Upstatemikes’s driveway lights. :( Obviously, the final design choice depends on the devices application – the right tool for the job.

You tout Crestron as being hardware-only but make no mistake, without software; it would be a very expensive paperweight and nothing more. It is more than just a grouping of hardwired logic gates and I/O drivers, it too is loaded with software. Yes, you are correct in that Crestron gear, like the devices I mentioned are purposed-built for a particular task, and that adds an intrinsic amount of reliability to the mix. Crestron “hardware†is of no better quality (on a electronic component level) than high-quality PC components – the same part from the same manufactures are on both boards. Yes, they’ve a single business model that allows them to concentrate their efforts on doing one task and doing it well, but that specialization comes at a price. A price to the consumers in the bottom line, and a price to Crestron as it tend to make them inflexible and more resistant to change. The exact argument was made for big-iron mainframes when mid-range Unix boxes came into picture. When the last time you saw a mainframe running a company?

Yes complexity adds additional points-of-failure, but also adds opportunities for innovation. Yes, a simple, true hardware-only system will always perform better (although I just had to buy a new toaster) for single tasks than one comprised of hardware/firmware/software, it will also always only do one thing. People here choose PCs for HA because of availability, supportability, and reliability (sorry, true). PCs also give us the ability to innovate and not to feel constrained by a particular set of logic that may not always apply to our situation or meet our needs. Generally I think you’ll find that people here also do not like to be told that they cannot do something, I know I don’t like it. Crestron (and others) seems to be known for telling people “no†to all sorts of questions and that directly opposes the stance of most HA DIYers, as you have stated. PCs in their generality give us the option to explore, they don’t always say “yesâ€, but they never say “you cant do that†and almost always say “maybe, how bad do you want it?†and that is enough for most of us. Crestron will always have its place, as long as there are people with more money than time, they’ll survive. Me, I’m on the other end of the spectrum – life gets in the way of my hobbies – That’s why my house runs on linux, misterhouse, Xlobby, and zoneminder, all free, on a few yard-sale Pentium III PCs. The only time they have been down is due to extended power outages.

Soooo, to sum: If you are talking “true†hardware vs a mix (HW/FW/SW). Then I agree; hardware is more reliable and less flexible. If you’re comparing a mix vs PC tech, then your back on the Ford vs Chevy thing and you’ll never win that (neither side will).


Fly by wire is a great example of hardware based engineering. The W2K box does not directly control critical systems for a reason.

Ever been to NASA?
 
Closed systems like you mention are quire different in design then a Windows PC. In fact that is a whole engineering concept unto itself.

I dont understand that....

I buy a PC, I load a HA system, do some programming, test, place it in a closet and it runs......That is what I define as a closed system. So my windows PC is as closed and reliable as your Crestron device, why wouldnt it be? I dont updated it, I dont need to because it runs the same way as the first day it started. Again just like your Crestron device.

btw, my system does what I want at a fraction of the cost and I have warranties.
 
Now now....Your gonna cause me to post links to the science of established reliability and make you feel, ummmm,,,, not as smart as you think...

I don't like people who profess a knowdge of a science or profession they have not researched..

Ok then,,, why does a plane not use Windows to directly control the flight surfaces ?? You can get a analog output from a DAC card and directly drive a servo to move a plane flight surface - why not do that then ??????

Why do extreme saftey systems not use PC's and instead use -relays- ???

Explain this to me...

They can spend all the money in the world and the ONLY thing they care about is uptime and reliability.

I will wait.....
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And ummm,,,,, Crestrons DONT NEED UPDATES.

Your 100% uptime is ONLY UP TILL IT FAILS. The less parts in a system the less there is to fail - so because a Crestron has maybe 10 to 20 TIMES less parts this means your 100% uptime PC has a 10 to 20 times higher chanch of failing. Period.

Sorry for quoting, ummm, facts.
 
And ummm,,,,, Crestrons DONT NEED UPDATES.

Neither do PCs, I have a webserver in my home that 50+ people hit per day and it hasnt be updated in 2 years!!

Why do extreme saftey systems not use PC's and instead use -relays- ???

Dean, explained why....again Crestron is not simply relays and saftey systems so that point is irrelevant to this debate . BTW, LAX had computer problems yesterday that delayed everyone 90 minutes :(


I will just simply say....If the same conditions are present for both types of devices then the reliability is the same. You have yet to allow for the same conditions to exist.

You are passionate about defending Crestron and that is fine. You sell it and make a living from it, I assume? Sorry if Im wrong but its like arguing with a NY Yankees fan who the better baseball team is :)

btw....not as smart as you think... My paycheck tells me how smart I am :D
 
Yes a closed system as you described is much better then a open system connected to the Internet. Of course if it happens to be connected to the net - the next exploit that requires nothing but being connected will drop you as you have not updated in years.. They don't write exploits for Crestron.

If its completely closed and you have tested it - sure - then the only thing to worry about is the vast increase in parts count and the quality of parts. A crestron is designed for reliability in hardware - a PC usually is not. Its designed for cost savings.

Look guys I HAVE NO CRESTRON GEAR. I DO NOT ADVOCATE CRESTRON. However I am standing up for reliability engineering - which I -DO- understand. I have a lot of formal training on this subject. Established reliability of systems IS A SCIENCE. Its a WELL UNDERSTOOD ENGINEERING FIELD.

Jeeze... Go read up on this branch of engineering before posting.
 
Why are you using a PC for HA ???

To answer this question its simple.....


- extreme flexibility.
- least amount of learning curve
- 100+ different points of support
- proven performance/reliability at a fraction of the cost of all other solutions.
 
Sorry bud, I get a bigger paycheck. Been to any collage courses in reliability engineering lately ???

In fact do you have any engineering degrees ?

Neither do PCs, I have a webserver in my home that 50+ people hit per day and it hasnt be updated in 2 years!!

I'm a member of CERT and thats stupid. Thats poor computer management.


The more parts you have the more likely it is to fail.

The more code you run the more likely it is to fail.

Find me engineering papers that disprove my above points.

I dont make a dime off crestron and never have.
 
Go read up on this branch of engineering before posting.

no prob but you must go read the definition of pedantic :(
 
I dont make a dime off crestron and never have.

Sorry for that assumption


Dont get bent out of shape. Im sure you makes lots of money with your iron ring was just having fun with your comments about smart or something.


I'm a member of CERT and thats stupid. Thats poor computer management.

lmao, I never thought having a server running for years was poor management but oh well.
 
And yes not updating your computer is poor computer management. It shows a overconfidence and youth.
 
It shows a overconfidence and youth.


lmao, I like that Im young again :(

it could also show that I know windows updates do cause problems so why give myself extra work on something I do for free for a community (its a fantasy sports drafting site that I look after....old hobby).
 
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