Wiring questions

[JST829]

I posted a topic a month or so ago regarding the pre-wiring for my new home. The responses I received were very helpful and I think I've got pretty much everything figured out. I've decided on using an Elk M1 Gold.

I will be beginning my installation one week from today and I just had a few final questions before I place my orders for all the cable:

1. How many speakers/sirens are typical throughout the house for things like smokes/security alarms. I'm going with the 4W-TB smokes (4-wire), which don't have sounders on them. Is one per floor enough?

2. As for pre-wiring for the smokes themselves... I'm separating the detectors into four zones: Basement, 1st floor, 2nd floor, and attic. For each zone I'm planning on running 4-wire (firewire) from the Elk to the first smoke, from the first to the second, second to third, etc., until the last one which I put an EOLR on? Does this sound correct?

3. Which leads to my next question. How do I power these four zones? Is there some kind of hub that connects to my M1G that has multiple low voltage power connections?

4. Lastly, it has been suggested to me that I run 16/2 plus Cat5e to all my windows for future blind control. Can I use 16/2 in wall rated speaker wire for this? Should I be using something else?

Thanks for any help you can give me!

 

[tmbrown97]

I think you need some pro advice on this one relating to fire code... but a couple questions - will you also have the builder-installed 120VAC smoke detectors in addition, or does the system rely only on these detectors?

I would think that, if the smoke detectors themselves do not have sounders, than you would need to have fire wire to your speakers, and have speakers located around the house enough to hear them from anywhere - again, needs pro confirmation. In addition, I know that for fire detection purposes, you also must have at least one keypad connected via fire wire.

In general, you need to plan for adequate sound coverage inside the home. I like the little SP12's scattered throughout the home vs. one or two loud sirens placed centrally. You can put one behind each keypad, and add a couple more if needed for good coverage. Added bonus - when you're interacting with the alarm panels, the sound comes from right there - feels pretty natural.

 

[JST829]

I'm going to have the builder install the 120VAC smokes as well. This will mostly be for backup as well as remote notification if something were to happen when no one was home.

If I run two Cat6 to each keypad location, will this be enough for communication with the M1G as well as speakers behind the keypad?

 

[wuench]

I would run a separate wire for the speakers. I ran 18/2.

 

[Del91574]

I think you need some pro advice on this one relating to fire code... but a couple questions - will you also have the builder-installed 120VAC smoke detectors in addition, or does the system rely only on these detectors?

I would think that, if the smoke detectors themselves do not have sounders, than you would need to have fire wire to your speakers, and have speakers located around the house enough to hear them from anywhere - again, needs pro confirmation. In addition, I know that for fire detection purposes, you also must have at least one keypad connected via fire wire.

In general, you need to plan for adequate sound coverage inside the home. I like the little SP12's scattered throughout the home vs. one or two loud sirens placed centrally. You can put one behind each keypad, and add a couple more if needed for good coverage. Added bonus - when you're interacting with the alarm panels, the sound comes from right there - feels pretty natural.

Depends on how tough the AHJ is going to be, but the rule is :15 dB above average ambient sound levels, or 5 dB above maximum ambient sound level or 75dBA (which ever is greater), Most system smokes have 85 dB sounders integral. This requirement is only going to need to be met if the fire system is being installed to meet code requirements, not as a supplementary system.

What is going to be required is if the speakers are used for fire notification purposes, they must be wired using fire rated cabling.

I'd look at possibly rethinking separating the fire into multiple zones, as a fire reset will throw the other detectors into trouble when attempting a reset, unless a lot of custom task programming and outputs are provided for, which is going to further complicate the install.

If you're still considering multiple fire zones, a 4/18 to each smoke, with EOLR and supervision relay is necessary. If daisy chaining from smoke to smoke, a single one of each is needed.

 

[fwd03]

If the fire/smaoke detector does not have sounder in it, you will need to install speakers into each room. I think that is required by alarm code. Otherwise, when house caught on fire, person in the room without sounder or speaker might not be able to escape.

 

[tmbrown97]

If the fire/smaoke detector does not have sounder in it, you will need to install speakers into each room. I think that is required by alarm code. Otherwise, when house caught on fire, person in the room without sounder or speaker might not be able to escape.

Except, as the OP mentioned a few posts back, this is a supplemental alarm system, not the primary system... There will already be interconnected 120VAC smokes throughout the home.

There's only a couple pros on here that know the fire code inside and out - I'd defer to them (so far DEL on this thread).

 

[Del91574]

If the fire/smaoke detector does not have sounder in it, you will need to install speakers into each room. I think that is required by alarm code. Otherwise, when house caught on fire, person in the room without sounder or speaker might not be able to escape.

As stated, the OP appears to be installing the monitored system as a supplemental setup, not to meet code requirements, so notification is not required, though it may be desired.

 

[JST829]

As stated, the OP appears to be installing the monitored system as a supplemental setup, not to meet code requirements, so notification is not required, though it may be desired.

This is correct. My inspector is requiring 120VAC smokes.

How about carbon monoxide detectors? My electrician will be hard wiring those as well. Is there anyway to tie those into my Elk so that I can at least be notified when I'm away from home if they're going off?

Can anyone help me out with question number four?

Thanks everyone.

 

[Del91574]

4. 16/2 inwall is the same no matter which way you cut it.

As far as CO, I know of no state's legislation that mandates they be HV or LV, just that they are installed appropriately. Appropriate documentation can be found at Systemsensor.com with exact state legislaton.

If your electrician homeruns 4 conductor (or 6, better) then an appropriate LV unit can be tied to the Elk easily.

I would speak to your AHJ rather than your electrician at this point, as questions regarding what they'll allow or not allow are starting to come into play vs. what your EC is running wiring for, since in the end they (and you) are going to need to answer to them for a sign-off.

 

[JST829]

4. 16/2 inwall is the same no matter which way you cut it.

As far as CO, I know of no state's legislation that mandates they be HV or LV, just that they are installed appropriately. Appropriate documentation can be found at Systemsensor.com with exact state legislaton.

If your electrician homeruns 4 conductor (or 6, better) then an appropriate LV unit can be tied to the Elk easily.

I would speak to your AHJ rather than your electrician at this point, as questions regarding what they'll allow or not allow are starting to come into play vs. what your EC is running wiring for, since in the end they (and you) are going to need to answer to them for a sign-off.

Got it, thanks a lot. I'll talk to my AHJ regarding the CO detectors.

I think I have all my questions answered for the prewiring so that's great.

Can someone tell me how all my future low voltage devices get powered? I know the Elk has 16 input zones and additional zones can be added by getting more hubs, but how about for power? Are there also hubs for that? I'm thinking about my future motorized window coverings and things like motion sensors.

 

[wuench]

Power draw needs to stay below the 1A total if powered by the Elk, 2A in alarm (adding in sirens, etc). You need to add up the specs of all you devices and stay below those limits. If you are above those limits you need to look at an extra power supply and battery, determine how you want to split your devices and connect the power wires accordingly. If you are putting smokes on it you probably want a supervised power supply like the P212S. Also you need to consider the more power you use the less your battery run time will be, you should perform a test on battery to determine if it gives you adequate time or if you need to upgrade.

To split out wiring elk does not make a hub, the closest it makes is the Elk-PD9, but that is kind of overkill (though that is what I used), you can just use terminal strips instead, or just connect multiple wires to the existing terminals.