Your thoughts on the Leviton purchase of HAI 2.5 years in

[Mr Spock]

When Leviton bought HAI back in August 2012 I had mixed feelings.  Purchases like this can go many different ways.  It really depends on the motives of the purchaser and if they did their homework beforehand.
 
I had hoped that Leviton would provide additional resources to HAI.  Something that would allow HAI to up their game and put out more and better products.  From what I've seen over the last 2.5 years that has not been the case.  They still continue to put out infrequent and half baked products, but still one of the best available.  The only thing I've really seen is that Leviton put a lot of effort into wiping out the HAI name and replacing it with Leviton in all their documentation.  Have I missed something?
 
What are your thoughts on the new HAI/Leviton?
 

 

[jwilleke]

I agree and Very sad.
I see fewer resources (Teck Notes etc) than we used to and lack innovation.
 
And the "Other" Leviton products still do not work well with HAIs products.
-jim

 

[Del91574]

I see the HAI product going the way of the Apex products after Honeywell owned them for a bit. Small updates and changes but the big innovation is gone.

 

[BobS0327]

The only thing I've really seen is that Leviton put a lot of effort into wiping out the HAI name and replacing it with Leviton in all their documentation.  Have I missed something?

 
Yep,  Leviton also raised the price on the Omni product line about a year after they acquired HAI.
 
I've owned the OPII since it first hit the market in 2002.  Upgraded it to the flash version around 2009.  This controller has proven to be  very reliable to me over the years. 
 
Unfortunately, I don't see any substantial future Omni product development by Leviton  IMHO, I believe Leviton will keep the controller in the product line in order to allow Joe the electrician to install basic residential/commercial security systems.  I think they want to get out of the home automation market as a key player (innovator) in that market and instead focus on supplying hardware to whoever are the key players in the home automation market.  This is evidenced by Leviton's partnership with Wink to sell  "Wink certified" switches etc.   Also, to support this opinion, Leviton/HAI did not have a booth at 2014 CES but they were present at the 2012 and 2013 shows.
 
 
 
 

 

[ano]

I'm hot sure Leviton bought HAI so they could get out of the home automation area. At the least, they realized they were behind in the home automation area so they bought HAI to gather info on the market. Now, very possibly, when Leviton purchased HAI, they might have learned things that they didn't expect so they pulled back their plans somewhat, but I don't beleive they threw up their hands and said forget it.  A very strong possibility is that Leviton now has even bigger plan, and this takes years to acheive. The lack of HAI improvements probably means they are going in a different direction a bit, but it doesn't mean things are dead. Leviton still is not where it wants to be in home automation, but getting to where it wants to be is not an easy task, and they know that. Their are so many companies that jumped into home automation, and they are gone now. Leviton is in no hurry to jump in, they want to do it right.  This is a very large conservative company that doesn't move fast.
 
The true test is to learn if the HAI people aquired by Leviton in New Orleans are still employed by Leviton. If they have moved on to new companies, that is bad news. Certainly Jay McLellan IS still employed by Leviton, and that is important news, because I'm sure he received substantial money when HAI Leviton bought HAI, so won't be working there if they were getting out of HA. Also, Leviton realizes that HAI has many existing customers, that they don't want to lose, so they have something in mind.
 
One final thing to look at. Do you think Leviton is in a rush for new products because other products in the market are overtaking HAI in the HA and security market?  If these products are out there, where are they? There is ONLY ELK, and I haven't seen a whole bunch of new ELK features either. No basically Leviton is in no hurry, so they are taking their time.  Until other products appear from other companies that compete with HAI products, I would not fear that Leviton is leaving HA.
 
Also, a lack of a booth by Leviton from CES means nothing. Of course we all know Apple didn't have a booth either and we saw they ARE getting into HA. Its clear Leviton doesn't have lot to show this year, so why spend the money? 
 
So I am cautiosly optimistic that Leviton is working on something really good, but it may take years. Only time will tell. 

 

[BobS0327]

HAI has many existing customers, that they don't want to lose

 
Well, I guess they want to lose me.  I submitted a Snaplink issue to them via email.  They initially responded that they would make the developer aware of the issue.  I followed up  a few times on the issue via email to determine if the issue was resolved.  No one ever responded to my follow ups.  I finally gave up and purchased Superlink.  I also  requested  updated Omni Link protocol documentation.  They never responded. At least they could have told me whether or not it was publicly available.  I've been a customer since 1998.  Started with the Omni controller and then upgraded to the Omni Pro II in 2002.
 
Unfortunately,  I'm one of those people who cannot wait years for Leviton to become innovative.  I needed it a couple of years ago.  The 20th century hardware in this board is way to slow for my requirements.  The controller response really lags when I issue a fair number, (around 50) of basic unit on/off commands.  Using a backend Linux client to connect to the controller, the time between the submission of the last command  and the time it is actually executed is approximately two minutes.  The controller's great for demonstrating how to turn lights off/on via a Android phone.   But for performance oriented HA projects, it's severely lacking.
 
How can Leviton be serious about HA if they're using 20th century hardware for 21st century HA?
 
Although Apple is a key player in consumer electronics, they have never had a presence at any of the CES events and probably never will per CEPro  http://www.cepro.com/article/interesting_data_on_which_products_companies_got_biggest_buzz_at_ces_2015/K5
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

[gf5300]

To stay with Leviton/HAI is a big dilemma for me.
I am an 8 year OmniPro/UPB user who is drafting plans for a new house and I am seriously considering moving on to other systems/protocols.
This is sad because I have been very happy with the performance and reliability of the HAI/UPB combination but, just like some of the other members, I see no innovation on Leviton's part.  The financial and time investment is significant enough for me to look elsewhere.  I just don't want to invest in yesterday's technology.  Sadly enough, the only innovation I am seeing going on with the OPII is being made by others (Lupinglade with Haiku/Space).  For what I am seeing, all the new and cool stuff is being created via Zwave, WiFi and even Insteon (and their respective controllers).
 

 

[ano]

O.K. in those posts on moving on to more "modern" systems, PLEASE, do explain what these more modern systems are.  Maybe you could provide a link?
 
Here is the facts-of-the-matter. The Omni uses dated technology, but it works, is very reliable, and supports many technologies.  You can access it from your phone, it can control drapes, lights, locks, thermostats, music, it can send email now, it supports UL listed security, Zigbee, Z-Wave, UPB, X10, Somfy, and many others. It also never crashes, never gets viruses, and hasn't been hacked by N. Korea, as far as we know.  I'm not really sure what more features anyone would want.  Yes direct web access would be nice, but HAIku works fine, Space just was released, and QCQ, Homeseer, HAIku Helper and a few others support added functionality if you want that.  Again, what are these "modern" features that you are after? 
 
It easy to say Leviton should add more "features" but the truth is, Leviton, like all companies, needs to make a profit from what they sell, and that is where the problem lies. Can sales pay for new development?  There lots of peices involved, and I have no doubt that Leviton is looking at them, but the company knows that many "modern" takes on home automation previously have failed. maybe even a bigger problem is fitting new products in to the products that Leviton currently makes.
 
The fact that Leviton features the Omni family on one of the slides of its home page, and the fact that the HAI team is still relatively intact tells me Leviton is not getting out of home automation. But that also doesn't mean they have all the answers on the next BIG product, or if they do, they are not rushing it out.  I personally think this is positive.  Also, Leviton realizes that their OMNI has little in the way of competition, so there is not a big rush to release products.  You could say ELK, but really, has that received major updates either, and is that panel really better than HAI?  It certainly doesn't support as many technologies.
 
So if you want to "move on" to other "modern" devices, certainly that is valid, but please let us know what these are because I don't see them out there. And what "modern features" do you want to see?  Leviton may read this board, and they are probably looking for suggestions as well.  

 

[pete_c]

Using a backend Linux client to connect to the controller, the time between the submission of the last command  and the time it is actually executed is approximately two minutes.

 
Curious if this is relating to using OpenHab?
 
Here testing on a 32bit Ubuntu 14.04 LTS / Atom CPU / 512Mb of memory or 64bit Ubuntu 14.04 server I do not notice any delays while listening for relays switching playing with the thermostat. 
 
My Homeseer 2 serial plugin running on 32 bit Wintel Server is doing fine these days relating to response times.
 
Testing the Homeseer 3 network plugin on Ubuntu 14.04 64bit server and its quick using the new HSTouch3 interface.  Not pushing it hard right now though.
 
I do see it slow whatever methodology I use to control the Russound zoned amps though.  (software or Omnitouch serial or IP consoles (fastest are the direct keypad controllers plugged in to the Russound amps).
 
I have compared using PCA status, HAI Omnitouch Pro on Wintel widow, Snaplink in Wintel and other 3rd party Wintel HAI consoles.  (side by side typically). 

 

[BobS0327]

Curious if this is relating to using OpenHab?

 
Nope.  I'm using a variation of Digital Dan's jomnilink code on a Ubuntu 14.04 LTS headless server in console mode.  The code can be found at
https://github.com/digitaldan/jomnilink
 
I set up a test bed using the code to fire 50 unit on commands to assorted switches in a loop.  The fifty commands were sent in less than an eighth of a second.  The current Omni hardware platform just isn't robust and scalable.  If memory serves me correctly, someone once told me that the controller queues up the external and internal (scripting) commands and executes them one at a time.  IOW, single tasking.
 
Today's processors are along the lines of quad core or dual core with multitasking/multiprocessing capabilities.  Processing 50 commands by these processors would be a "piece of cake".
 
My old obsolete Droid X2 dual core cell phone can probably process faster than the OP2 controller.
 
Incidentally, the Omni Openhab binding is a variation of the above jomnilink code.

 

[JonW]

Nope.  I'm using a variation of Digital Dan's jomnilink code on a Ubuntu 14.04 LTS headless server in console mode.  The code can be found at
https://github.com/digitaldan/jomnilink
 
I set up a test bed using the code to fire 50 unit on commands to assorted switches in a loop.  The fifty commands were sent in less than an eighth of a second.  The current Omni hardware platform just isn't robust and scalable.  If memory serves me correctly, someone once told me that the controller queues up the external and internal (scripting) commands and executes them one at a time.  IOW, single tasking.
 
Today's processors are along the lines of quad core or dual core with multitasking/multiprocessing capabilities.  Processing 50 commands by these processors would be a "piece of cake".
 
My old obsolete Droid X2 dual core cell phone can probably process faster than the OP2 controller.
 
Incidentally, the Omni Openhab binding is a variation of the above jomnilink code.

What kind of units are you turning on?  Most of these lighting protocols are fairly slow when you stack up a lot of commands.  The controller likely is throttling the pace of the send for reliability reasons.  In my opinion, sending 50 commands is not normal and doing such things is the reason newer lighting technology uses links or groups to activate multiple units at once.

 

[BobS0327]

The majority of the units are UPB both on/off and dimmable with a few X10 units which are also on/off and dimmable.

 

[ano]

X-10 commands can take a second to go out over the wire, and UPB commands about half that long. You are very disillusioned if you believe that its the lack of multitasking in the panel is causing your problems. If you need to control 50 switches as once, use a UPB link. 

 

[pete_c]

Yeah here tried the OmniLink code mentioned below and it was fine for me speed wise; but here tested a bit differently than you.  IE: Well like sitting next to the furnace (workshop is nearby) and just playing with the furnace via a software, HTML GUI or console..  I have though compared different lighting protocols all lined up and the response times were fine for me.  I played a bit turning on all of the Christmas lighting with one button press and everything appeared to be pretty much in sync.
 
I understand that the processor on the Leviton OPII board is of an older type and no where near what CPUs can do today.  That said my old old Omnitouch 5.7 serially connected screens (consoles) running on some 200Mhz processor do fine and preferred here by the wife for their speed and simplicity in function.  I write about this while playing now with my little capacitance Atom based CPU tabletop tablet running three layers of touch stuff and being able to stream live broadcast TV.    I like it but functionally it does the same as the Omnitouch 5.7's only with more eye candy.
 
Personally I like that while the Omnipro II product is showing its age; it works fine and is dependable for my security and automation stuff  (I have all of my serial ports utilized today - and its not enough so I use software automation too (Homeseer)).
 
I have no comments on the Leviton purchase of HAI other than I think it was good that it happened. 
 
@Bob; guessing you like your HAI OPII panel a little bit as you went to the second generation of OPII panels starting originally with one in 1998 and still using one today.....geez just realized that 17 years of using an HAI security / automation panel.
 
Here I have done the same and kept the old legacy OPII panel still running while concurrently purchasing a newer one a few years back and trying to break it adding more stuff to it (haven't broken it yet).

 

[avpman2]

X-10 commands can take a second to go out over the wire, and UPB commands about half that long. You are very disillusioned if you believe that its the lack of multitasking in the panel is causing your problems. If you need to control 50 switches as once, use a UPB link. 

Unfortunately, one major drawback of using a link is the module won't transmit it's status to the controller if it's activated by a link. I learned this the hard way and confirmed with Leviton tech support. In addition Omni currently provides no way to poll the status of all modules in a room (which could at least been a workaround albeit inefficient.) You have to poll the modules individually or send a scene command to the room which causes the controller to poll the status of each module in the room. I suggested to Leviton that they add a "get room status" command. But they don't appear to be interested in suggestions. Don't know if that's because they're focusing on the next generation Omni controller or just what happens when a BIG corp swallows up a little one.