Z-Wave vs Insteon

[rolanday]

Sounds like you had issues with powerline communications in your home

Yes, that must be it. I just need to buy a new house Seriously though, I had similar issues w/ my previous home. I've seen lots of posts with people trying to chase down similar problems by adding filters, etc., which is fine for the hobbiest, but IMO these types of issues are unacceptable if the tecnhology is to ever go mainstream. For me, however, the real kicker was the switches going bad. I was kinda OK w/ Insteon as a protocol and would have stuck with it if it wasn't for the quality issues.

 

[bbruck]

Hey Roland,

When you decide to make the switch please keep me on the list for your discarded Insteon stuff!

 

[Dave X10]

..... I've seen lots of posts with people trying to chase down similar problems by adding filters, etc., which is fine for the hobbiest, but IMO these types of issues are unacceptable if the tecnhology is to ever go mainstream.

I don't think Home Automation can go mainstream.

There is nothing new about Home Automation. Before we had Microsoft or Apple (or any home PC), or MP3's, DVD's, even VCR's, PDA's or Cell Phones, we had Home Automation. It's very nature is customized and specialized and DIY engineered.... and generally cutting edge.

I don't think... and this just MHO.. ZWave, Insteon, or even old cheap X10 makes a big difference. The quality (or cleanliness) of the power-line and clearness of RF in your homes airwaves makes a big difference. But the deciding factor for reliability will continue to be.. at least for some time... to be the skill of the installer. In most cases.. that is also the user.

 

[MikeB]

Yes, that must be it. I just need to buy a new house

No, you just need to identify the cause (which can be difficult in some cases, I know) and eliminate or filter it if possible - same with RF interference.

It's not about the # of filters you install, it's all about where you install them.

 

[Madcodger]

Sometime in the next year, assuming my real estate agent does his job at selling our Insteon-equipped house and the economy continues to come back, we're likely moving into a new home (current one just too big now that's its just the two of us, and we want less maintenance than our two landscaped acres require). This means I'll have the opportunity to start over with a new HA system. And frankly, I'm stumped as to what to put in despite several years with this hobby and a lot of hours on this and the HS board.

My Insteon system is now generally reliable in terms of communication but I've had so many hardware failures over the past three years that my faith is shaken (still have switches I need to exchange, and have been putting off that fight with SH). As for Z-wave, someone else mentioned a concern that has been bugging me as well: the fact that an RF mesh system produces a new web of radio waves in the house, and I'm not sure how I feel about that (nothing to base that on - it's just a vague concern that I have to think about). UPB is an option, but I know less about that than either of the other two (will be doing some homework there). Can anyone think of other protocols / signaling systems besides these three and X10, that are supported by companies like Elk and HS? I've heard about Lutron Homeworks and others, but know nothing about them. So, are we pretty much limited to those mentioned, or are there others to add into consideration? Anyone have direct experience with other systems? Don't mean to hijack this thread, but thought consideration of additional systems might be worth thinking about or the original poster as well.

 

[Digger]

Sometime in the next year, assuming my real estate agent does his job at selling our Insteon-equipped house and the economy continues to come back, we're likely moving into a new home (current one just too big now that's its just the two of us, and we want less maintenance than our two landscaped acres require). This means I'll have the opportunity to start over with a new HA system. And frankly, I'm stumped as to what to put in despite several years with this hobby and a lot of hours on this and the HS board.

My Insteon system is now generally reliable in terms of communication but I've had so many hardware failures over the past three years that my faith is shaken (still have switches I need to exchange, and have been putting off that fight with SH). As for Z-wave, someone else mentioned a concern that has been bugging me as well: the fact that an RF mesh system produces a new web of radio waves in the house, and I'm not sure how I feel about that (nothing to base that on - it's just a vague concern that I have to think about). UPB is an option, but I know less about that than either of the other two (will be doing some homework there). Can anyone think of other protocols / signaling systems besides these three and X10, that are supported by companies like Elk and HS? I've heard about Lutron Homeworks and others, but know nothing about them. So, are we pretty much limited to those mentioned, or are there others to add into consideration? Anyone have direct experience with other systems? Don't mean to hijack this thread, but thought consideration of additional systems might be worth thinking about or the original poster as well.

If you are concerned about the RF then Insteon is defintely out. They are finally going dual mesh to minimize the problems people see with poor communications.

I ripped out a system in my house in August of 2008 and replaced it with UPB. I have not had a single hardware failure and everything just works. Not saying it is the best type of HA Lighting but it works where Insteon did not. Just did the same thing at a friends house last weekend and time will tell with that house (but not a single phone call even asking a question or saying something has not worked so far).

If you go for new construction look at a hardwired system which will give you reliability and no rf.

Good Luck with the SH fight. Been there and done that to many times.

 

[macromark]

As for Z-wave, someone else mentioned a concern that has been bugging me as well: the fact that an RF mesh system produces a new web of radio waves in the house, and I'm not sure how I feel about that

Z-Wave traffic is pretty low level stuff... a LOT less RF than you'd experience just by carrying a cellphone in your pocket! Unless you're actually controlling a device or polling it, there's no RF happening at all.

mark

 

[sorka]

Just over a year ago, I had to decide whether to abandon Insteon or not. I had tried UPB but the delay sucked and virtual multi way switches didn't work as well as insteon. z-wave was faster but didn't afford the flexibility of pairing multi way switches with each other the same way that insteon did and most of the z-wave stuff didn't report status at all or either incorrectly. Plus both z-wave and UPB were twice as expensive. Still, my insteon setup was crap and more than half the switches had failed.

I then saw a post in this foroum how SH was replacing old failed switches that were out of warranty. I had 30+. When I called SH, which I had done several times before with no success, this time they agreed to replace ALL of my switches including the ones that were still working.

That along with 4 access points and a new ISY-99i, and my Insteon setup was something completely new. Since then, I've not had any failed switches or any communication problems.

The other big thing that was missing was insteon motion sensors. I've had a bunch for over a year and they're still using the original batteries. I'm amazed they last that long but pleased too. Since then, insteon has come out with lots of new options. So it does appear that Insteon is finally starting to mature.

 

[IndyMike]

If you are concerned about the RF then Insteon is defintely out. They are finally going dual mesh to minimize the problems people see with poor communications.

I ripped out a system in my house in August of 2008 and replaced it with UPB. I have not had a single hardware failure and everything just works. Not saying it is the best type of HA Lighting but it works where Insteon did not. Just did the same thing at a friends house last weekend and time will tell with that house (but not a single phone call even asking a question or saying something has not worked so far).

If you go for new construction look at a hardwired system which will give you reliability and no rf.

Good Luck with the SH fight. Been there and done that to many times.

Hi Digger,

It's been awhile. You and I (and Sloop) were in the Insteon thing at the beginning. Yes there were a number of quality issues. I was fortunate in that I was migrating slowly from X10. As a result, I was only singed by the early Insteon problems. I've managed to work through the issues, and in general, SH has done right by me. Both you and Sloop dove in and had far worse experiences. So much for the lead in...I won't dredge up old (bad) memories.

I do have a number of opinions on the "dual mesh" Insteon protocol. Just to be clear - this is not pointed at Digger (I'm really not throwing darts at you). I am throwing darts at the idea that "dual mesh" devices will fix broken systems.

1) Insteon has been "dual mesh" since day 1. SH defines dual mesh as the use of RF/powerline Accesspoints (signalincs in the early days) combined with powerline only transceivers. In my mind, the white paper covers this accurately despite what many people inferred "dual mesh" do include.
2) I believe the "dual mesh" (i.e. Accesspoints) implementation to be the weak link in the Insteon protocol. I'm sure SH viewed Accesspoints as a "user friendly" method of bridging phases. The bottom line is that they are a point source of intermittent failure that can be affected by either RF or powerline interference.
3) Systems with increasing numbers of AP's are increasingly difficult to troubleshoot. When a device cannot communicate, it's virtually impossible to determine whether it's a powerline or RF communication problem (or both).
4) I view the addition of true "dual mode" devices as further complicating the Insteon systems. Without a utility to track the communication path, systems with multiple dual mode devices will defy troubleshooting methods.

I attribute my "good" experience with Insteon to the fact that I've had a passive phase coupler at my main panel since day 1 (legacy X10). I'm currently running my 4500 sq. ft. home with the passive coupler and 1 AP (for motion sensors/remotelinc). With this installation, I can test and troubleshoot with relative ease. With 5 people in the house I do have "known" problem devices that can become mobile. With strictly powerline communication, I can easily determine a problem area and pick out the offending device (yes I've mapped my circuits - it's an old X10 habit). I use a total of 3 filters in my home.

I periodically have problems with the single AP going off-line (I get communication errors with the motion sensors). Sometimes the AP self corrects, at times I need to power cycle it. I can't imagine depending on two of these devices to link all communications between the power legs.

So, am I unhappy with my Insteon system? Not in the least. It's an extremely cost effective HA implementation that, when combined with an ISY-99, is very capable and flexible. As I indicated earlier, SH has stood behind their product and replaced a number of early "problem" devices (I purchased exclusively from SH).

In summary, while some see the dual band devices as the fulfillment of the "dual mesh" promise, I see storm clouds coming... I firmly believe that relying on RF coupling to get around problem areas is nothing more than a band-aid. If you don't understand the nature of the problem, it will bite you down the road.

IM

 

[Digger]

If you are concerned about the RF then Insteon is defintely out. They are finally going dual mesh to minimize the problems people see with poor communications.

I ripped out a system in my house in August of 2008 and replaced it with UPB. I have not had a single hardware failure and everything just works. Not saying it is the best type of HA Lighting but it works where Insteon did not. Just did the same thing at a friends house last weekend and time will tell with that house (but not a single phone call even asking a question or saying something has not worked so far).

If you go for new construction look at a hardwired system which will give you reliability and no rf.

Good Luck with the SH fight. Been there and done that to many times.

Hi Digger,

It's been awhile. You and I (and Sloop) were in the Insteon thing at the beginning. Yes there were a number of quality issues. I was fortunate in that I was migrating slowly from X10. As a result, I was only singed by the early Insteon problems. I've managed to work through the issues, and in general, SH has done right by me. Both you and Sloop dove in and had far worse experiences. So much for the lead in...I won't dredge up old (bad) memories.

I do have a number of opinions on the "dual mesh" Insteon protocol. Just to be clear - this is not pointed at Digger (I'm really not throwing darts at you). I am throwing darts at the idea that "dual mesh" devices will fix broken systems.

1) Insteon has been "dual mesh" since day 1. SH defines dual mesh as the use of RF/powerline Accesspoints (signalincs in the early days) combined with powerline only transceivers. In my mind, the white paper covers this accurately despite what many people inferred "dual mesh" do include.
2) I believe the "dual mesh" (i.e. Accesspoints) implementation to be the weak link in the Insteon protocol. I'm sure SH viewed Accesspoints as a "user friendly" method of bridging phases. The bottom line is that they are a point source of intermittent failure that can be affected by either RF or powerline interference.
3) Systems with increasing numbers of AP's are increasingly difficult to troubleshoot. When a device cannot communicate, it's virtually impossible to determine whether it's a powerline or RF communication problem (or both).
4) I view the addition of true "dual mode" devices as further complicating the Insteon systems. Without a utility to track the communication path, systems with multiple dual mode devices will defy troubleshooting methods.

I attribute my "good" experience with Insteon to the fact that I've had a passive phase coupler at my main panel since day 1 (legacy X10). I'm currently running my 4500 sq. ft. home with the passive coupler and 1 AP (for motion sensors/remotelinc). With this installation, I can test and troubleshoot with relative ease. With 5 people in the house I do have "known" problem devices that can become mobile. With strictly powerline communication, I can easily determine a problem area and pick out the offending device (yes I've mapped my circuits - it's an old X10 habit). I use a total of 3 filters in my home.

I periodically have problems with the single AP going off-line (I get communication errors with the motion sensors). Sometimes the AP self corrects, at times I need to power cycle it. I can't imagine depending on two of these devices to link all communications between the power legs.

So, am I unhappy with my Insteon system? Not in the least. It's an extremely cost effective HA implementation that, when combined with an ISY-99, is very capable and flexible. As I indicated earlier, SH has stood behind their product and replaced a number of early "problem" devices (I purchased exclusively from SH).

In summary, while some see the dual band devices as the fulfillment of the "dual mesh" promise, I see storm clouds coming... I firmly believe that relying on RF coupling to get around problem areas is nothing more than a band-aid. If you don't understand the nature of the problem, it will bite you down the road.

IM

It almost seems like you are saying the new dual mesh devices will make things worse not better. If that is so...... then what will people do?

 

[BLH]

My new revision 4.1 ApplianceLinc's work better with one Access Point and a Passive Coupler. Than with two Access Points and no passive coupler.