adding surge protectors in LB connector

[mikefamig]

The Ditek, via 12AWG would be my suggestion. How you get it to the rod and protect it from physical damage is another consideration. Could do compression to the grounding conductor, but definitely bypass the load center portion.
 
Best case scenario is to the ground rod and to the same connection, cad welded or similar, but usually neighbors don't like it when you do that.

 
That's al doable. I never heard of cadwel before so I looked it up on youtube and it looks fast neat and solid but connecting to the ground rod is not my worry,
 
I'm trying to avoid installing yet another enclosure on the wall and cutting another splice in the rs-485 for such a small device as the Surge protector and the Elk can seems a likely place for it.  What makes it so difficult is that the elk can is at the top of the basement staircase built into the wall and it's a pretty long run to a ground stake.
 
On the garage end it will be pretty easy for me to clamp the Ditek to the awg6 that is grounding the load center to a ground rod in the earth but the house end is a little more difficult.

 

[mikefamig]

How about another ground rod, at this cable entrance, bonded to the existing ground rod at the service entrance? Diteks grounded to the 2nd ground rod.

 
That is all good but the ground rod is not my problem. The location of the Ditek and it's proximity to that rod is my problem. I am trying to avoid cutting another splice in the rs-485 data bus at or near that location. I was hoping to put the ditek in the elk container where the cat5 is already spliced. The problem becomes that the elk enclosure is a long ways from the ground rod and built into the wall making it a little difficult to run another large gauge wire to it.
 
Mike.

 

[Neurorad]

I'm sorry, Mike. I got lost in your thread. I thought you were suggesting the Ditek(s) be positioned at the conduit entrance to your house, a potentially easy place for a 2nd ground rod (if you can trench for the bonding wire to the primary ground rod).

I had a similar grounding issue for my under eave DirecTV dish and mast, far from house ground.

I would focus on grounding the incoming cables. Elk controller boards would benefit certainly from a local SPD, in the house, but I would believe the Ditek(s) wouldn't be located there.

 

[mikefamig]

I'm sorry, Mike. I got lost in your thread. I thought you were suggesting the Ditek(s) be positioned at the conduit entrance to your house, a potentially easy place for a 2nd ground rod (if you can trench for the bonding wire to the primary ground rod).

I had a similar grounding issue for my under eave DirecTV dish and mast, far from house ground.

I would focus on grounding the incoming cables. Elk controller boards would benefit certainly from a local SPD, in the house, but I would believe the Ditek(s) wouldn't be located there.

 
You are correct that ideally the surge should be at the point that the cable enters the building. I know this and should probably just bit ethe bullet and install another little box in the basement but I'm looking for an easy button.
 
Mike.

 

[Neurorad]

Box in the basement? For what, specifically?

I have a very limited understanding of grounding, but I think you need a quality bonded ground (is that a thing?), not an SPD, for the cable(s) entering the house. Yes, SPD would be at the controller, too.

Any possibility to trench a bond wire from the conduit to the primary house ground?

 

[RAL]

You are correct that ideally the surge should be at the point that the cable enters the building. I know this and should probably just bit ethe bullet and install another little box in the basement but I'm looking for an easy button.
 
Mike.

 
 
This is one of those cases where you should bite the bullet and do it right.  You've spent the money to buy the surge arrestor, so why take a shortcut and potentially sacrifice some of the protection it is supposed to provide?   The way I see it, you really won't have an extra splice if you place it where the cable enters the house.  You need to run the cable through the Ditek's terminals no matter where you place it.  Well, maybe you save something if you place it outside in the LB, where there already is a splice, as that would do double duty there. But if you place it just inside the house or in the M1's can, then the count is the same.
 
Also, I'd want to avoid putting anything that will experience a potentially high voltage during a surge inside the can with the M1, or in my electrical panel.  Keep them separated, if possible.

 

[mikefamig]

Box in the basement? For what, specifically?

I have a very limited understanding of grounding, but I think you need a quality bonded ground (is that a thing?), not an SPD, for the cable(s) entering the house. Yes, SPD would be at the controller, too.

Any possibility to trench a bond wire from the conduit to the primary house ground?

 
The enclosure in the basement would be to house the surge suppressor.
 
I don't know where to begin to explain the concept and uses of grounding in an electric circuit and the words ground, bond and common are often misused. First you must distinguish between the terms "ground" and "common". The word ground is often used incorrectly to describe the common reference in an electrical circuit. Voltages in a circuit are often measured in reference to earth ground but not always.A bonding grid is a system of grounding that is designed to protect people from stray current in a system by conducting it safely to earth before it does any harm..
 
To illustrate the difference between common and ground - the negative battery post or "ground" in the elk system is never connected to earth ground so it is really a common reference for voltages in the system and not an earth ground. Voltages measured in reference to this common may differ if the same voltage was measured in reference to an earth ground.
 
The cat5 that I used for the rs-485 bus in the elk has a brown lead that is the negative power lead for the system but it is not grounded to earth at any point in the system, It should be properly referred to as "common" and not ground even though it is connected to the negative battery post in the system. Each of the leads of the cat5 cable are connected to and pass through the surge device but under normal circumstances the surge device has no effect on the signals on these wires, the leads just pass through it. What is unique about the surge device is that is also has a wire connected to earth ground. This wire does nothing under normal circumstances and has no effect on the elk system until there is a lightning strike or a higher than usual voltage condition on one or more of the cat5 leads. When the voltage on the cat5 goes above a voltage threshold (in this case ~18volts) the current will be shunted to earth through the wire that is connected to a stake in the earth outside. This happens in a fraction of a second and prevents that high voltage from reaching the equipment downstream from the surge device.
 
I've tried to explain the role that the earth ground plays in the case of a surge protection device and I hope that I didn't confuse things further. This is one of the roles that the earth ground plays in electrical circuits. Earth is also commonly used as shielding to isolate wires in a cable from stray RF signals and as a bonding grid to protect people from stray current.
 
So to sum it up the word ground is used loosely to mean different things and you have to consider what context it is used in.Maybe someone else here can explain better or correct me if necessary.
 
Mike.
 
I'm adding a disclaimer here.....I am not an electrician and only offer this stuff as I understand it so do your own research. I've done a lot of my own work around the house through the years and have learned as I go. I studied bonding in AC electrical systems when I installed our outdoor spa for obvious reasons and we enjoyed it for years without anyone getting fricasseed.

 

[mikefamig]

This is one of those cases where you should bite the bullet and do it right.  You've spent the money to buy the surge arrestor, so why take a shortcut and potentially sacrifice some of the protection it is supposed to provide?   The way I see it, you really won't have an extra splice if you place it where the cable enters the house.  You need to run the cable through the Ditek's terminals no matter where you place it.  Well, maybe you save something if you place it outside in the LB, where there already is a splice, as that would do double duty there. But if you place it just inside the house or in the M1's can, then the count is the same.
 
Also, I'd want to avoid putting anything that will experience a potentially high voltage during a surge inside the can with the M1, or in my electrical panel.  Keep them separated, if possible.

 
I can't argue with your logic and thanks to both you and DEL for nudging me in the right direction when I get a little lazy. You're both very convincing and I'm learning a lot.
 
Right now I have the surge installed in the M1 enclosure and we have T-storms forecast and it will have to do until I get to installing it properly in the basement. I also have a second surge installed on the other far end of the cable in the garage so it will absorb some of the energy in a strike. I also have to protect a second cat5e that carries ethernet between the buildings. About a month ago we had a very loud crash of thunder and it destroyed a 16 port ethernet switch and a TV set top box so surge protection has floated up a little higher on my todo list.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

OK so I'm planning to install a small enclosure on each end for teh surge devices and can fit up to a 9" wide box but don't think that it needs to be that large. I have an immediate need for two 4-pair devices and should probably plan a little extra space just in case I need it in the future. Can you guys recommend a nice enclosure for this sort of purpose? Maybe about 6" square or a little larger?
 
Mike.
 
EDIt
 
This will be an indoor installation.

 

[RAL]

How about something like this one?
 
www.homedepot.com/p/100584755
 
HD sells 6" x 6" , but there are also larger sizes, such as 8" x 8".  I don't think HD carries the 8x8, but Zoro does, or check your local electrical supplier.
 

 

[mikefamig]

How about something like this one?
 
www.homedepot.com/p/100584755
 
HD sells 6" x 6" , but there are also larger sizes, such as 8" x 8".  I don't think HD carries the 8x8, but Zoro does, or check your local electrical supplier.

Maybe a dumb question but should I be concerned with NEMA specs for electrical code?

 

[RAL]

I don't think the electrical code specifically requires NEMA rated enclosures, but using a NEMA rated enclosure ensures that it meets the requirements for the specified environment, which in turn makes it easier to say your installation meets code.
 
These boxes are NEMA Type 1 rated, which is all you should need for use in a dry location like a basement.

 

[mikefamig]

RAL
 
I found that my local HD does have that same box in stock in both 6" and 8" square size. That mlooks like a winner.

 

[Neurorad]

Thank you so much, Mike.  That explanation was perfect.  I understand it completely.  I was missing the fact that the Elk is ungrounded.
 
I bought an enclosure about a year ago from SolutionsDirectonline.com, made by Allied Molded Products, to house my whole-house SPD.
 
http://store.solutionsdirectonline.com/amp1426cch-nema-4x-polycarbonate-enclosure---14x12x6-p8191.aspx
 
Very good website, good email support with specifying.  The flange is removable, for recessed mounting in drywall.
 
AMP seemed to me to be a reputable manufacturer.  SD website easy to navigate.  http://store.solutionsdirectonline.com/polycarbonate-enclosures-c316.aspx
 
NEMA ratings clearly detailed, if you go that route.

 

[Del91574]

Thank you so much, Mike.  That explanation was perfect.  I understand it completely.  I was missing the fact that the Elk is ungrounded.
 
I bought an enclosure about a year ago from SolutionsDirectonline.com, made by Allied Molded Products, to house my whole-house SPD.
 
http://store.solutionsdirectonline.com/amp1426cch-nema-4x-polycarbonate-enclosure---14x12x6-p8191.aspx

I'd suggest that anything that can see higher voltages and/or the collateral, install in a metal enclosure. I've had plenty times where a surge on a 31X or the jack went up with a good hit...hell even had the traces and remnants of a jack blown into the top of an alarm can before. Plenty of melted network hardware over the years
 
Mike, I'd go with an 8x8X4 enclosure in your case, you're probably going to end up with a pair of diteks installed and need to plan for the cable routing and service loop/bend radius, and be realistic with them.
 
Zoro or 'bay for closeouts or similar are good places to start for enclosures.
 
(I laugh about the biopharma place near your house, they're supposed to go to IP cameras on the goosenecks that just had air terminals installed on them).