adding surge protectors in LB connector

[mikefamig]

Pete
 
I mentioned above that I added the surge in a metal box inside the garage. At this point I have only done that one end but I plan to do the same in a box in the house on the other end of the cables. Like you I initially had no surge protectors and I lost a netgear 16 port ethernet switch and a set top box to lightning last month. The thunder clap was so loud that I shot out of bed. It sounded more like a crash than any thunder that I've heard.
 
Mike.

 

[westom]

Pete
 
I mentioned above that I added the surge in a metal box inside the garage. At this point I have only done that one end but I plan to do the same in a box in the house on the other end of the cables. 

 
When discussing protection at both ends, they are not talking about a protector.  They are talking about how that incoming wire connects to earth.  As noted earlier, telcos protect all low voltage wires by earthing a 'whole house' protector where each low voltage wire enters a building.  And withing feet of earth ground.  This is even required by code on all TV cable, telephone, and satellite dish installations.
 
 Any protector not connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground is not protecting from surges that typically do damage.
 
A Tech Note demonstrates this.  Every incoming cable (overhead or underground) first connects to single point ground before entering:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf
 
Best protection for a low voltage wire is hardwired directly to earth.  Since low voltage signals would not work properly, then we make that same connection via a protector.  A protector only does what a hardwire would do better.  No protector (box) does protection.  A protector is effective when it makes a low impedance (ie no sharp wire bends) connection to a same electrode used by everything else in that structure.  That solution must exist at each end where the wire enters each structure.
 
If a protector does not have a dedicated earthing wire, then it is a protector for something completely different; typically not destructive.
 
As always, protection is always about connecting destructive surges to earth where the wire enter the building.  And low impedance (ie  less than 10 feet) to single point earth ground.

 

[pete_c]

Thanks Mike.
 
Yup; here just reflecting on your original post and recalling over the years what I have done as I kept adding stuff here. 
 
Your continued live dialog relating to what you are doing does help other folks here having similiar or same said type of infrastructure.
 

Like you I initially had no surge protectors and I lost a netgear 16 port ethernet switch and a set top box to lightning last month.

 
Started some 12 years ago in this home with no surge protectors / no lightning protection  That said I did add much a bit here and there when I could and had time.   I did do all of the cabling stuff post home build here.
 
Yup; here losing the LV irrigation controllers due to a local lightning strike (well guessing) did surprise me as mostly I was into automating using software/firmware it and paid less attention to protecting the irrigation system direct connects to the outside solenoid switches.
 
Personally you have been much more proactive than myself in your endeavors doing the do while installing the LV stuff.
 
Years before lightning damage happened I installed a TVSS next to the fuse panel and yes that only related to the ingress of HV and for whatever reason thought that was all I needed even though I put ground stakes in and used them for much of the ingress of stuff in to the home.
 
So yeah here really have two major earth grounds (well really though its the same earth a few feet apart) and while autonmous they are sort of the same.  There is that huge groundstrap cable connected to the ingress of water in to the home and the ground stakes just outside of the do what LV / HV panels in the basement.
 
As you stated before
 

I like to say "aim low, hit nothing" and I don't like leaving anything to chance if I can help it.

 
is very true and does change the odds to your favor.  You know that already.

 

[mikefamig]

When discussing protection at both ends, they are not talking about a protector.  They are talking about how that incoming wire connects to earth.  As noted earlier, telcos protect all low voltage wires by earthing a 'whole house' protector where each low voltage wire enters a building.  And withing feet of earth ground.  This is even required by code on all TV cable, telephone, and satellite dish installations.
 
 Any protector not connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground is not protecting from surges that typically do damage.
 
A Tech Note demonstrates this.  Every incoming cable (overhead or underground) first connects to single point ground before entering:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf
 
Best protection for a low voltage wire is hardwired directly to earth.  Since low voltage signals would not work properly, then we make that same connection via a protector.  A protector only does what a hardwire would do better.  No protector (box) does protection.  A protector is effective when it makes a low impedance (ie no sharp wire bends) connection to a same electrode used by everything else in that structure.  That solution must exist at each end where the wire enters each structure.
 
If a protector does not have a dedicated earthing wire, then it is a protector for something completely different; typically not destructive.
 
As always, protection is always about connecting destructive surges to earth where the wire enter the building.  And low impedance (ie  less than 10 feet) to single point earth ground.

 
I don't know what you mean about connecting the incoming wire to earth. This is not shielded cable and there is nothing in this cable that can be connected to earth. The surge protection device that I used is properly grounded to a stake in the earth to which it will shunt over-voltages that may occur in any of the data leads.
 
Mike.

 

[Del91574]

The whole house protectors are not for protecting the house or connected equipment, only for the telco equipment and back to the CO.....in actuality, the older units are very susceptible to damage and degradation, depending on the vintage. The older units were gas tube arrestors but the newer units are carbon fuse based and over time they degrade (scratchy phone lines).

They're not intended to protect the customer provided equipment, only help with surges back to the slick sites or CO.

 

[Neurorad]

I think Westom is referring to the Type 2 whole-house SPDs, installed at the panel.

http://m.homedepot.ca/product/ProductDetails.aspx?productid=943213&lang=EN

 

[westom]

I don't know what you mean about connecting the incoming wire to earth.

Does not matter if a cable is shielded.  Every wire inside every cable must connect to earth BEFORE entering a building.  For example, a telco wire makes a connection to earth at their (CO) end.  And also has a 'whole house' protector (installed for free) where their wires connect to yours.
 
TV cable needs no protector to make that connection.  Best protection is a hardwire from that coax shield to the same earth ground - without any protector.  Every protection layer may not have a protector.  But always has an earth ground.
 
Best protection uses a hardwire.  However when wires cannot connect directly to earth (ie telephone), then a protector does what a hardwire would do better.
 
All protection is about where energy dissipates.  A lightning rod (like a protector) does not do protection.  A lightning rod (like a protector) is only a connecting device to what does protection - earth ground.  Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed.  Neither a lightning rod nor a protector does anything useful without that 'always required' connection to earth.
 
Neurorad demonstrated one example for AC mains.  If you do not have it or something equivalent and if it is not connected low impedance (ie 'less than 3 meter') to single point earth ground, then protection does not exist.  Protection is never about a protector.  Protection is always about where energy dissipates.  On a path that stays out of a structure and away from appliances.  IOW a protector adjacent to appliances has no earth ground AND does not even claim to protect from destructive surges. An adjacent protector may even compromise superior protection in the adjacent appliance.
 
Neurorad demonstrates an Eaton (Cutler-Hammer) protector.  Why is it effective?  First it has a dedicated wire for that low impedance (ie wire has no sharp bends) connection to single point earth ground.  Second, a direct lightning strike can be 20.000 amps.  So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps.  That one is rated in excess of 100,000 amps.  Those specification numbers are critical.  But far more important is the connection to and quality of single point earth ground.  All four words have electrical significance.
 
A lightning rod protects a structure so that lightning need not find earth ground via the structure.  A 'whole house' protector protects appliances so that lightning (and other destructive surges) is not inside hunting for earth destructive via those appliances.
 
In all cases, only item that defines a layer of protection is earth ground - not a protector. Neither Plug-in protectors nor protectors that sit between an incoming wire and electronics have this nor will discuss it.  Protection means you always know where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.  That means every incoming wire (even the invisible dog fence) must have a low impedance connection to earth.

 

[mikefamig]

In all cases, only item that defines a layer of protection is earth ground - not a protector. Neither Plug-in protectors nor protectors that sit between an incoming wire and electronics have this nor will discuss it.  Protection means you always know where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.  That means every incoming wire (even the invisible dog fence) must have a low impedance connection to earth.

 
How about the case (the topic of this discussion) where the protectors that sit between an incoming wire and electronics are properly grounded to earth and have circuitry to safely conduct excessive current to that earth?

 

[Del91574]

This is the statement I was referring to. The telco connection to ground is not to protect a HO's equipment or cabling, never was and is never intended to. It's to mitigate damage to a CO's equipment.

Does not matter if a cable is shielded.  Every wire inside every cable must connect to earth BEFORE entering a building.  For example, a telco wire makes a connection to earth at their (CO) end.  And also has a 'whole house' protector (installed for free) where their wires connect to yours.
 
TV cable needs no protector to make that connection.  Best protection is a hardwire from that coax shield to the same earth ground - without any protector.  Every protection layer may not have a protector.  But always has an earth ground.
 
Best protection uses a hardwire.  However when wires cannot connect directly to earth (ie telephone), then a protector does what a hardwire would do better.

 

[drvnbysound]

The whole house protectors are not for protecting the house or connected equipment, only for the telco equipment and back to the CO.....in actuality, the older units are very susceptible to damage and degradation, depending on the vintage. The older units were gas tube arrestors but the newer units are carbon fuse based and over time they degrade (scratchy phone lines).

They're not intended to protect the customer provided equipment, only help with surges back to the slick sites or CO.

 
Looks to me like this whole home surge protector is for protecting customer provided equipment...
 
See "What type's of equipment are covered under the warranty?":
http://www.gulfpower.com/residential/technologies-programs/premium-surge/faq.cshtml

 

[Del91574]

Looks to me like this whole home surge protector is for protecting customer provided equipment...
 
See "What type's of equipment are covered under the warranty?":
http://www.gulfpower.com/residential/technologies-programs/premium-surge/faq.cshtml

Different item. You're referring to an AC surge suppressor, not a telco protector.
 
In regards to the link,I don't see anywhere a specific system model number or "consists of" components list that would lead me to believe they were installing anything other than a meter base....after all, it's introducing an entire liability once they touch another service supplier's point of demarcation and their specific FAQ also states you don't need to be home for the installation.....so what happens if my CATV or phone comes underground or the dmarc isn't outside.
 
What is being "sold" via that supplier would be a whole house supressor, installed via the power company, not the telephone utility. Notice, it does NOT cover CATV, phone or related equipment, but all the equipment is what is connected to the commercial power source. It's no different than the water company specifying a "leak protection" program, an alarm company or similar offering a PSA agreement. All in the name to increase RMR. Read the warranty, it really spells it out and the verbiage is quite clear as to what the coverage is and is not.
 
Telco's have carbon fused protection installed in their dmarc's and have been for decades.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarcation_point#/media/Fileemarc2.JPG

 

[drvnbysound]

Different item. You're referring to an AC surge suppressor, not a telco protector.
 
In regards to the link,I don't see anywhere a specific system model number or "consists of" components list that would lead me to believe they were installing anything other than a meter base....after all, it's introducing an entire liability once they touch another service supplier's point of demarcation and their specific FAQ also states you don't need to be home for the installation.....so what happens if my CATV or phone comes underground or the dmarc isn't outside.
 
What is being "sold" via that supplier would be a whole house supressor, installed via the power company, not the telephone utility. Notice, it does NOT cover CATV, phone or related equipment, but all the equipment is what is connected to the commercial power source. It's no different than the water company specifying a "leak protection" program, an alarm company or similar offering a PSA agreement. All in the name to increase RMR. Read the warranty, it really spells it out and the verbiage is quite clear as to what the coverage is and is not.
 
Telco's have carbon fused protection installed in their dmarc's and have been for decades.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarcation_point#/media/Fileemarc2.JPG

 
That's correct, but you can also see the section labeled, "Is this a lightning protection system", where it states: "However, Premium Surge Protection will cover any protected equipment damaged by a lightning induced surge that enters the home through the electric service, telephone, cable/satellite lines causing the failure of the installed surge device."

 

[Del91574]

I'm not getting into an argument, but it's not what their warranty states, contrary to the claims in their FAQ's.
 
They don't specify a BOM for their installation, but specifically,  their warranty excludes a lot if you read it clearly with it's intent. It excludes lightning and overvolt conditions (lines 3 and 5). They cover a surge condition, however they do not cover overvolt or surges caused by lightning.
 
Unfortunately, I've had to go toe to toe with Ditek, Edco and turn over equipment to them to be evaluated for a mission critical site that gets hit often (major metropolitan airport). As they say, devil is in the details. They're hoping that most won't put the claim through them and through  the HO insurance carrier.

 

[westom]

This is the statement I was referring to. The telco connection to ground is not to protect a HO's equipment or cabling, never was and is never intended to. It's to mitigate damage to a CO's equipment.

Total nonsense.  You never did this stuff.  Anyone can read 1950s papers in Bell System Tehcnical Jouranals for protecting new CO switches using transistors. Was existing protection for equipment sufficient for the new transistorized equipment?  With some exceptions - yes.  Because earthing at the CO is to protect a $multi-million computer inside "their" building.  And earthing at the residence is for protecting telco equipment inside the hosue.  Yes, all homes already have a 'whole house' protector installed for free.  That protection has existed longer than any of us have existed.
 
National Electrical code requires protection on all incoming TV cable, telephone, and antenna lines.  One incoming service that has no such requirement is AC electric.  Major protection from destructive surges (ie lightning) exists when all 'whole house' protectors or hardwires connect low impedance (ie less than10 feet) to single point earth ground.  Low impedance is another critical term you ignore because you did not learn.
 
Again, no protector does protection.  Protection is defined by earth ground.  What you did not learn explains why you want to argue with Ditek and Erico.  You mistakenly believe protectors do protection.  They do not. Learn BEFORE installing protectors.  Your damage is clearly traceable to a human who never learned what proetctors (already installed at every home) do .  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  Learn about earth ground to stop having damage is that idrectly traceable to human failure.

 

[westom]

How about the case (the topic of this discussion) where the protectors that sit between an incoming wire and electronics are properly grounded to earth and have circuitry to safely conduct excessive current to that earth?

Appreicate that a wall recpetacle safety ground (also called equipment ground)  is not earth ground.  For a protector to be part of an effective protection 'system', its connection must be "low impedance".  That means as short as possible (ie less than 10 feet), no sharp wire bends (all wires inside walls have sharp wire bends), no splices (interior wires also have many splices), and not inside metallic conduit.
 
Protection increases when separation between protector and electronics increases.  Telco COs want properly earthed protectors to be up to 50 meters distant from electronics ... to increase protection.
 
Protection is not about the protector.  Protection is always about a connection to and quality of earthing electrodes - the single point earth ground.  Another obviously did not learn this stuff.  Is arguing with Ditek and Erico because he assumed a protector does all protection. He never learned that earthing defines protection.  He even does not know of the telco 'installed for free' protector located where their wires meet yours.
 
Additional concepts apply (conductivity and equipotential) that also explain why 'whole house' protectors (and not protectors inside a house) define protection.  As has been well understood and demonstrated by example for over 100 years.  A protector is only as effective as its 'earth' ground.